pritzl Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Today, I witnessed 3 regular German rifle squads at 30, 16, and 3 meters respectively throwing grenades at an immobile, buttoned up M3A1 halftrack in open ground for well over a dozen turns. It is not an exaggeration when I say that several hundred explosions occured (an average of about 20 grenades per turn) with no results at all. The halftrack just sat there fat, dumb, and happy. None of the German squads were under any fire at all. This is the only thing that I've ever seen in CM that is so far removed from reality that it's almost funny. I know that 1.12 was supposed to be the last patch, but, at least for me, this is a problem that makes the game unplayable. This is not a criticism of BTS. Their support for CM has been absolutely outstanding! I just sincerely hope that this one last thing can be looked at and fixed. Besides, it really doesn't take away from CM2 development time because the problem has to be fixed at some point since they use the same engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by pritzl: Today, I witnessed 3 regular German rifle squads at 30, 16, and 3 meters respectively throwing grenades at an immobile, buttoned up M3A1 halftrack in open ground for well over a dozen turns. It is not an exaggeration when I say that several hundred explosions occured (an average of about 20 grenades per turn) with no results at all. The halftrack just sat there fat, dumb, and happy. None of the German squads were under any fire at all. This is the only thing that I've ever seen in CM that is so far removed from reality that it's almost funny. I know that 1.12 was supposed to be the last patch, but, at least for me, this is a problem that makes the game unplayable. This is not a criticism of BTS. Their support for CM has been absolutely outstanding! I just sincerely hope that this one last thing can be looked at and fixed. Besides, it really doesn't take away from CM2 development time because the problem has to be fixed at some point since they use the same engine. I think you will get a fair price for your game on ebay, but would recommend that you destroy your copy instead. I can sympathize with BTS in this regard - I hate seeing my book for sale second hand on ebay cause I don't get any residuals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Space Thing Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: I think you will get a fair price for your game on ebay, but would recommend that you destroy your copy instead. I can sympathize with BTS in this regard - I hate seeing my book for sale second hand on ebay cause I don't get any residuals! Michael Dorosch, C'mon man, he isn't threatening to sell his copy of CM! He (and many others) are seeing a definite major bug. All he (& many others most likely) want is BTS's response. At the very MOST, he might not buy CM2 if BTS ignores this. Anyways, he can sell CM here if he wanted to. I'm sure someone would just suck it up right away. I believe they care about this and that they are working on this one. At least I hope they are. AND he is right about it possibly affecting CM2, so fixing it now rather than later -makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 My concern is did infantry really have that many grenades? 20 grenades/turn. Wow did they have those backpacks Clint Eastwood used in "Where Eagles Dare". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 BTS has already remarked (in the original thread) that they are testing and looking into this problem. They probably don't have time to respond to every instance of "I saw it too!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte99 Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 I've been playing CM steady for three months and have never seen anything like this. I don't doubt that you did, but it's hard to see how such a rare phenomenon could make the game "unplayable." My advice: Get over it and play some different scenarios. ------------------ "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -Bertrand Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pritzl Posted February 15, 2001 Author Share Posted February 15, 2001 Thank you Space Thing. Let me try and explain what I mean by unplayable...or more appropriately, irritating enough to make me not really want to play. I sincerely love Combat Mission. I've not purchased a computer game since I received my copy last summer. In that time, I've played it a lot, but not nearly as much as I would have liked. Why? Because I've spent a good portion of that time waiting for various bugs to be fixed. They way I see it, why not wait until everything is as it is supposed to be before I play the ops and scenarios where I get one chance to play them without knowing anything about them. Of the ops and scenarios that have shipped with CM, I have only played 1 op and about 5 different scenarios. The rest have all been Quick Battles. Most, but not all, computer games, I could honestly give a rat's ass about. They border on mindless entertainment that rates about as high as watching your average sitcom. That's not to say that they're not fun, but if the occasional bug crops up, big deal. As for games such as Combat Mission, they are incredibly complex. So, naturally, bugs are going to show up during development and I understand that completely. However, I do believe that a piece of software can be made bug free. That doesn't mean the AI won't occasionally do something really stupid or that things will not happen that are a little unrealistic from time to time, but those are the results of design decisions, and compromises that had to be made in development and overall affect everyone playing. I don't mind those at all. For the Mac, choices of good strategy games are very limited. The opportunity to play a good WWII strategy for the mac has been nearly non-existant up until the release of CM. Atomic Games made a number of titles for the Mac a few years ago and I was even a beta tester for one of them. Unfortunately, they failed to really support their products very well and numerous bugs were simply ignored (even during beta testing). Based on the things said and done by BTS over the past couple of years, I don't see that being repeated here, thankfully. Bottom line is that I just really want a great WWII strategy game. Way back when I played the table top games, it was no problem to change rules that were the result of an obvious misprint in the rulebook or were too simplified, or whatever. However, with computer games, that's not possible and you're at the mercy of the developer to fix problems. What is great about wargames for the computer is that the complexity can be much greater because the computer handles all the rules and you only have to worry about strategy. If you can't do something, the computer simply will not let you. Also, a tabletop game that takes two weeks to play can be done in a few hours on the computer. I honestly have no interest or time to play with the maps, rules and counters anymore, but I still want a great strategy wargame to spend a few hours on the weekends with. So, it has nothing to do with throwing any kind of a temper tantrum if this isn't fixed or anything like that. It's simply a case of not wanting to play if opponents have the ability to take advantage of situations that fall so far outside of reality and outside of the intended design of the game. Rather than be irritated about it, I'd just rather spend time doing something else if it will not be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DekeFentle Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 I'll buy your game if you decide to sell it. Let me know I can have a certified check to you in 24 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Seriously, I think I've seen the same problem. A platoon and a half couldn't hit three buttoned, traffic jammed halftracks for five turns at ranges from 15 to 35 yards. The tracks eventually unjammed themselves and got away clean. I think it might have cropped up with 1.12, but I don't have any proof of this. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Pritzl, I completely understand you. I'm not going to stop playing, however. I'm just probably going to avoid scenarios that involve HTs until this situation is resolved. I just lost two HTs in one turn in a PBEM game to AT gun fire, so they are not invulnerable, just highly resistant to infantry close assaults. Guys, Pritzl is not being unreasonable. He asked a legitimate question. Knowing BTS, I'm sure they are working to resolve the problem post haste. ------------------ expert \'ek-,spert'\ n : someone who knows more and more about less and less until eventually they know everything about nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by Dittohead: My concern is did infantry really have that many grenades? 20 grenades/turn. Wow did they have those backpacks Clint Eastwood used in "Where Eagles Dare". He He... just watched that movie myself. The backpack of infinite explosives . If I remember correctly, they basically blow up an entire castle, and then an entire strip of road, with that one backpack of explosives. Funny stuff. [This message has been edited by Mr. Clark (edited 02-15-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramsGunner Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 In case you aren't following the original "BIG BUG" thread. I wrote this email to BTS today: 'I've been reading the Combat Mission forum, and there seems to be a bug in v1.12 regarding infantry assaults being ineffective against half-tracks. Is this the case and if so will a patch be released to address this?' and this is the reply I got from Matt: "We have been (so far) unable to replicate this bug. In tests I have done, Isaw infantry deal with halftracks quickly and efficiently. Testing continues though and if something truly is broke then we will deal with it like we have always done in the past" Hope this puts everyone's worries to rest about what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Part of my annual training involves the throwing of hand grenades at ranges less than 30 meters - for what its worth, you would be surprised at how many people in my unit (trained infantrymen) have a hard time hitting the target 100 percent of the time. On a stationary range. With no one shooting at them. If this is indeed a bug, by all means lets fix it, but how about some screen shots or something conclusively making the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 The throwing of "grenades" graphic is supposed to just give an impression of a close assualt. Each little black dot hurled is not simulating a single grenade. The Demo charges, gammon bombs look differnet then that, and are counted for. ...or so I recall reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 That is correct. The trowing of grenades is just to let you know that a close assualt is taking place. Lorak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 We are still actively looking into this whole issue. Testing continues... Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 If someone has a save game file that shows this behavior, please send it to matt@battlefront.com. We have had 3 people working on this for 2 days and we have found no problems. Charles has looked over the code and nothing popped out at him. And since he didn't touch the close assault code in a long time... lots of head scratching going on. And if this IS a bug, I for one certainly wouldn't put it into the "makes the game unplayble" category. Try playing a game without HTs in close assualt range and I think you will see what I mean Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Originally posted by Big Time Software: If someone has a save game file that shows this behavior, please send it to matt@battlefront.com. We have had 3 people working on this for 2 days and we have found no problems. Charles has looked over the code and nothing popped out at him. And since he didn't touch the close assault code in a long time... lots of head scratching going on. And if this IS a bug, I for one certainly wouldn't put it into the "makes the game unplayble" category. Try playing a game without HTs in close assualt range and I think you will see what I mean Steve Hi Steve Thanks for your latest post. I have sent two files to both Dan and Matt. I have found HT's hard to kill with grenades and close assualts without any anti tank weapons. Others have commented here that the HTs will die and succumb to the grenades it just takes many many attempts. Perhaps this is realistic and the way it is intended to be? For all the others here I have sent two test files to both Dan and Matt that are played as the US with M3A1 Ht's against LOTS of german rifle squads (about 10 plattoons) without any 'fausts or 'shrecks or any vehciles or tanks of any kind. I have sent files that show LOTS (like 10 -15) grenades being tossed at the US HT's without result. Maybe this is realistic? Maybe it is intended? We'll see -tom w P.S. In all honesty the HT's WILL die it just "seems" to take alot longer with grenades and rifles, if they say its fine the way it is and there is NO bug or "undocumented feature" I can live with it, it just means all those guys throwing grenades have REALLY lousy aim, nothing more really IMHO. [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 02-15-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ksak Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 I suppose that the next round of complaints will be that MY halftracks die too easily and the other guys are still invulnerable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Originally posted by DekeFentle: I'll buy your game if you decide to sell it. Let me know I can have a certified check to you in 24 hours. Pritzl, Put it on auction directly here, don't bother going to Ebay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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