Jagdcarcajou Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Hey all, Ok, so I though these would be a cool idea, so here they are. I don't have enough space to host these on my tiny site (they are about 3Mb each for the full zip file), so if Manx or DraGoon would like to host these, let me know. If I hear enough interest, I will do the British, Polish, and hell, even the French. Enjoy! Chris ------------------ What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou? CM Recon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Neato. You might want to exercise caution when posting that second one though. Certain countries have laws against that. I'd hate to see BTS get in trouble because it was on their forum. Personally, I hate to see history sanitized, so it bothers me not at all. ------------------ Mein Vater, mein Vater, und hörest du nicht, Was Erlenkönig mir leise verspricht? - Sei ruhig, bleibe ruhig, mein Kind; In dürren Blättern säuselt der Wind. Stereotypes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 And judging from Rommel22's ill-fated thread the American flag in the first one will start a big flame war. They look nice, tho. ------------------ What a bunch of horsecrap. -Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Yep, nice work. But I have to agree with Forever Babra. Here in Germany the use of swastikas is forbidden, if it´s not for scientific/educational use and computer games do not fall into this category... If a german website links to a site containing illegal symbols, both can get into trouble. No big deal, just my humble oppinion. ------------------ Klotzen, nicht kleckern! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 What I'm worried about is some country using an image like that, however innocuous, as an excuse to ban the import of CM. Not good for BTS. Not good for us. ------------------ Mein Vater, mein Vater, und hörest du nicht, Was Erlenkönig mir leise verspricht? - Sei ruhig, bleibe ruhig, mein Kind; In dürren Blättern säuselt der Wind. Stereotypes The Un-Rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Yeah, maybe make a version with an Iron Cross (or whatever it's called) for the sensitive types and one with a Union Jack so you're more inclusive and offer them all up for download. I'd probably nab one. ------------------ What a bunch of horsecrap. -Steve [This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 02-26-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Right. Or some magazine hoping for a story. Actually in Germany the media likes to jump on stories about brutal/nazi computer games. Woulnd't like to see CM pushed into THAT category. ------------------ Klotzen, nicht kleckern! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Oooh, now there's a fine idea. The top medal from each nation prominently displayed in the centre. Knight's Cross Medal of Honor Victoria Cross Legion of Honour (?) And the Poles get...something red and white no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Like that idea. I want some knight's cross with oak leaves, swords, diamond and a lightsword... ------------------ Klotzen, nicht kleckern! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe F Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Hi Jagdcarcajou, I think they are great an hope they become available for download somewhere soon. Pity about all the rules, but it is a good idea to use the medals instead, just in case. Ps, how about a new shortcut icon, the one supplied is terrible. CU, Joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Much as I hate to acknowledge the ridiculasness of it all, I have to agree with others and particularly Babra. Might I suggest changing it to the Balkenkreuz instead of the Hakenkreuz. That would resolve at least that problem. I can remember long ago when board gaming ruled, Canada banned the importation of an Avalon Hill game (name escapes me at the moment), that dealt with a hypothetical civil war in Quebec. Government bureaucrats in any government don't have much sense of humor in these matters. I wasn't aware of the American Flag being a problem of some sort, but maybe a piece of the US flag with the Union Jack, the French Tri-color, the Maple Leaf, and the Polish Flag would avoid any hard feelings. Best way I think to do that is just create another two versions for foreign download providing an option maybe. Personally I'd like to use the ones you have there, so while I acknowledge the need for compromise, I wants me cake so I can eat it too. Otherwise, these are outstanding. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 02-26-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 If a German website links to a site containing illegal symbols, both can get into trouble. Just wondering....how could a web site outside Germany possibly get into trouble for having a swastika? I'm no lawyer, but I don't think German laws are enforceable in other countries or vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilltopper Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Those are very nicely done...I know our German buddies will get in trouble for the swastika. Maybe you could do an iron cross. But you'd think this wouldn't be an issue nowadays...maybe that's why my folks moved over here from Germany 180 years ago! Saw on the news a couple of weeks ago there were some trees planted some where in eastern Germany in the shape of a swastika...when the leaves changed color, you could see it from the air. 60+ years later they found it and cut 'em down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 They couldn't Doug Williams, but the site "in Germany" linking to, or hosting a download for such material might, though I think that only a vague possibility. Rather, I think the real concern is if enough visibility to the German authorities is raised on this issue on a continuing basis then the potential as Babra has pointed out for their reacting to it (CM), in an official manner through their Custom's procedures increases. Government mechanisms anywhere are usually slow to act, and usually only act when prodded by the visibility of a particular issue. A press story, lots of incidents of the same nature, someone on high says something, etc. So, the more we tempt fate, the more likely something might happen. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 02-26-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Originally posted by Doug Williams: Just wondering....how could a web site outside Germany possibly get into trouble for having a swastika? I'm no lawyer, but I don't think German laws are enforceable in other countries or vice versa. Don't get me wrong. I really don't think that german authorities will knock on BTS door to a talk to Steve & Charles. But, for example, the big internet providers COULD stop german users from accessing the site. (Worst case scenario) Anyway, even if you'd post swastikas all over the place, I woulnd't think that anyone in Germany cares... It's just the POSSIBILITY, that's all. ------------------ Klotzen, nicht kleckern! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Well, just recently Yahoo.com was sued by the French gov't (IIRC) for the sale of Nazi memorabilia on their auction sites. Yahoo argued, of course, that it is A) merely a clearinghouse for sales, and does not sell any of the goods itself, an American company and thus not under French jurisdiction and C) Yahoo.fr did not allow the sale of Nazi memorabilia from its auction sites, therefore complying with the law. France on the other hand argued that it was Yahoo's responsibility to block French users from visiting Yahoo.com. The suit stood, and AFAIK Yahoo has now prohibited the sale of Nazi memorabilia on their sites. Personally I thought it was silly, more because of the issue of jurisdiction than anything else, but it is something to be aware of. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagdcarcajou Posted February 26, 2001 Author Share Posted February 26, 2001 Hey all, Well, no one has offered to host these yet, so I don't know if there is an issue at all. Even if there was, I don't plan to change the flags. I am no apologist, but neither am I a revisionist. The German army served under that flag from 1933 to 1945, and the "theme" of the mods includes the national flag associated with the units pictured. Take it or leave it, its all up to you. I am definitely doing the British and Canadian versions, and a preview of those will be up tonight. I do not think I will be doing other versions, unless a large number of folks actually ask for them. Thanks to those with kind words, and I appreciate the suggestions (I may even follow up on the icon one), but don't look for "sanitized" or medal versions from me anytime soon! If BTS would like me to remove the images, I will gladly do so, as I do not wish to cause them undue negative attention. These are meant for fan consumption only, and it shouldn't affect them either way, but I respect their "no swastika" policy and don't want to mess anything up. As a personal note, I actually found the swastika staring me in the face a sobering reminder, and it somewhat took the "cool" factor of the German forces down a few notches. Its easy to get caught up in the "glamour" of Tigers, and all the other fancy names, and asthetically pleasing machines, and to forget the history behind the pixel war. I am fully aware that not every German supported the Nazi's, nor their often brutal ideologies and practices, but there was a large number that did. That flag represented them all, from Gestapo to patriot, and today its hard to see through the red, white and black symbol of hate to the human side of the Germans. That symbol represents those men and women of that time, and it is my firm opinion that censoring it is an injustice to the men and women of all nations involved in the war. Never forget... Chris ------------------ What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou? CM Recon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Smith Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Forever Babra- "Das kind........war tot."? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Originally posted by Bruno Weiss: I can remember long ago when board gaming ruled, Canada banned the importation of an Avalon Hill game (name escapes me at the moment), that dealt with a hypothetical civil war in Quebec. That game was by SPI. I used to see it on the shelf at the game store (remember game stores?) all the time. Nobody I know ever bought one. ------------------ Mein Vater, mein Vater, und hörest du nicht, Was Erlenkönig mir leise verspricht? - Sei ruhig, bleibe ruhig, mein Kind; In dürren Blättern säuselt der Wind. Stereotypes The Un-Rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Originally posted by Stephen Smith: Forever Babra- "Das kind........war tot."? He sure was. The Erl King got him. Always loved that poem. ------------------ Mein Vater, mein Vater, und hörest du nicht, Was Erlenkönig mir leise verspricht? - Sei ruhig, bleibe ruhig, mein Kind; In dürren Blättern säuselt der Wind. Stereotypes The Un-Rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 You might want to check out Schubert's famous setting of it. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. "90% of the crucial decisions in this business are made by idiots who don't even play games." Cliff Bleszinski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Is it just me, or was censorship one of the tools Nazi Germany used to control the citizens anyway? Sadly our society would rather forget everything and pretend we live at DisneyWorld. I for one know kids of today have very little knowledge of why this symbol is so linked with evil of times past. To bottle it up and try to hide it from view is one reason it remains such a powerful symbol to anyone who still holds on to the sick beliefs, or is foolish enough to be led to this by others. But trying to hide them and force people to not remember them, adds to their power and mystique. And strange as it may be, Jewish people of today are one of the biggest proponents of people seeing this and being educated as to what it meant. They have more of a right to decide that issue than you, I, or any government that chooses to regulate it's usage. Does CM need it to be historic game? Nope, plays great with or without it. I can put Pokeman symbols all over it and still play exactly the same. So until a computer game goes marching down the heart of Berlin yelling Heil Hitler, I find this to be a sad attempt to discourage its use. Ray ------------------ When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one." Click now for shelter from the Peng thread New Site of the PLA:Rugged Defense Group Ladder The Red Army Mirror Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Nobody is talking about censorship, Mantaray. We just don't want to cause BTS any problems due to the laws of other countries. EDIT: Oh, and please don't speak for me and what I want to show people. ------------------ Mein Vater, mein Vater, und hörest du nicht, Was Erlenkönig mir leise verspricht? - Sei ruhig, bleibe ruhig, mein Kind; In dürren Blättern säuselt der Wind. Stereotypes The Un-Rant [This message has been edited by Forever Babra (edited 02-26-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob/1 Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Originally posted by Jagdcarcajou: Hey all, Well, no one has offered to host these yet, so I don't know if there is an issue at all. \ Chris Chris I ll host them on my site... [This message has been edited by Rob/1 (edited 02-26-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Originally posted by MantaRay: Is it just me, or was censorship one of the tools Nazi Germany used to control the citizens anyway? Sadly our society would rather forget everything and pretend we live at DisneyWorld. I for one know kids of today have very little knowledge of why this symbol is so linked with evil of times past. To bottle it up and try to hide it from view is one reason it remains such a powerful symbol to anyone who still holds on to the sick beliefs, or is foolish enough to be led to this by others. But trying to hide them and force people to not remember them, adds to their power and mystique. Ray MantaRay, the laws in Germany are NOT to mask history but to ensure that those symbols are NOT USED in a way to GLORIFY the NSDAP regime. In Germany at school pupils learn a lot of the crimes committed by Germany during and before WWII, so there's no "censorship" about the past. I am a German, served in the german army, and REALLY like to play CM, and that's the reason why I pointed out some problems that COULD occur when using swatikas. ------------------ Klotzen, nicht kleckern! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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