SOTW... Beda Fomm Spoiler Alert

[Shep]

Attack on Nibeiwa Fort has all but petered out.

Beda Fomm sounds like a Star Wars location or character... another large battle.

Who wants to jump in with an AAR or pre-game tactical analysis?

[Hans]

Suggestion

I believe there are some sixty scenarios, at a week or so apiece, it might be a year to finish. May I suggest you make the title "Scenarios of the week" and do 2-4 chronologically from the disk. Each with a separate thread of course.

[phil stanbridge]

I've just finished this one - played as both sides too. It's large - and action packed

[...................................]

And very unrealistic indeed.

Spoiler:

.

.

.

.

.

.

Matildas at Beda Fomm???!!! How did they get there then?! And don't even get me started on the map. Whoever described this scenario as 'historical' is probably the same guy who wrote that we can deploy thunderous tanks like Pershings and King Tigers on the CDV case.

I hate bad history :mad:

[Shep]

I have no clue about the historicity of this one, but it was a blast to play.

Do the words "67 vehicles destroyed" whet your appetite?

What a fun shootin' match this was, and it also illustrated the disparities between weapons platforms.

Play it, and let us know here how it comes out.

[Michael Emrys]

I haven't played this one yet and may not get to it at all, but I did eagerly open it up and take a look at it. I too thought the map a little odd. For one thing, all the maps I've seen of the battle show the coast road running running north-south. The game map shows it as east-west. Strike one. In real life, the Italians entered from the north, trying to get south. In other words, they should have had exit zones along the southern edge. The scenario has them entering from the east and racing for three victory locations. Strike two (at least). Lastly, in real life the Brits attacked from the east. The scenario shows them entering from the west. Sorry, but the only thing my maps show is impassible terrain and the Gulf of Sirte to the west of the road. Strike three. I don't know to what extent the game engine imposes these limitations on a designer, but on the screen it just looks all wrong.

The rest of the game may be a blast to play and I'm not saying anyone should not enjoy it. Hey, it's only a game, right? But I do hope someone will take another look at this interesting battle and produce something I personally feel a little more comfortable with.

Michael

[Sergei]

Against the AI this kind of Meeting Engagements pose a problem. I managed to ambush the Brit tanks without much trouble. Then the Aussie foot types came, broke and surrendered. I got like 50 POW's in the first wave! Then came the Matildas. I managed to gun-damage one with my 75mm AA guns, but then I found the situation a bit too thick and hit the 'cease fire'.

[von Lucke]

I think it's supposed to represent the area of most action on the second day of battle (6 Feb).

Emphasis is mine, but this is quoted from the MagWebEuropa WW2 site, from an article by David H. Lippman:

The Italians moved out at 8:30 a.m., without artillery, targeting a small rise in the road just west of the mosque, logically called the Pimple.

Meanwhile, the British, under Brig. J. A. L. Caunter, prepared for the attack. 4th Armoured Brigade was nearly at the end of its tanks division's reserve was only 10 cruiser tanks. Caunter had plenty of worries: cold, wind, rain, sandstorms, and the fact that he was far beyond the range of RAF support.

At dawn, patrols told Caunter the Italian column, stretching for miles, was moving south. Caunter's men stood to. 2nd RTR, with 19 tanks at the edge of a slope, faced 60 Italian machines at the Pimple.

But as the Italians attacked, the British got in the all-important first shot, their guns ripping through the Italian armor, turning M13s into burning coffins, wrecking eight. Before the stunned Italians could return fire, the British had withdrawn down the slope, to repeat the example, destroying seven more tanks with no loss. The Italians opened up with artillery and committed their reserves, as did the British.

The Italian numerical advantage was no help. Most Italian vehicles had no radios. The British instituted a drill movement right out of Salisbury Plain training exercises. With the snap order,"Hello all stations. Tanks left and attack the Pimple," the British counterattacked.

The Italians, lacking the effciency of radio, stolidly moved to their predetermined objectives, and waited for orders. The Italians fought with great determination but in total disarray.

A Squadron of 2nd RTR soon scooped up 250 PoWs. British artillery expended nearly all it ammunition to break up attacking Italian infantry columns.

At 10 am., The Italian defenders at Sceledeima were told to pull out and get to the Pimple. They raced down the road and into the 7th Hussars.

Even so, the British were in trouble. The Italians were streaming down endlessly; 60 tanks had been knocked out, but more were coming...and 2nd RTR was out of ammunition...4th Brigade needed more help. Where was 1st RTR?

By 11:25 a.m., 2nd RTR was down to 13 cruiser tanks. At noon it only had 10. 7th Hussars was in worse shape -- it had only one cruiser tank left.

The Italians, sensing victory, kept charging, firing artillery over open sights at pointblank range.

The crisis hit at 3 p.m. 7 Hussars found the tail of the Italian column and attacked it. 3rd Hussars battled Italian tanks. 2nd RTR, driven off the Pimple, tried to break round. Now British radio communications had broken down. At this point, it seemed the British might crack.

But the 1/RTR finally arrived, and rumbled towards the sound of the guns, driving the Italian tanks northwest. Bergonzoli was halted. 2nd RTR had destroyed 51 M13s for a loss of 3 tanks and seven men. Other outfits destroyed 33 tanks. 10,000 Italians had surrendered.

1/RTR was 7th Armored Div reserve, mounting Cruiser tanks and Mk VI's --- all the Matildas being with 7th RTR up north with the Australians.

As for the odd orientation of the map, yr guess is as good as mine there...

Is it just me, or are Cruiser tanks no match for M13's? Seems like the M13's can take a few hits, but the Cruiser's go down with just one pop.

And speaking of odd scenarios, try the Bir el Gubi battle: I was expecting the Charge of the Light Brigade, and ended up with a standard combined-arms attack.

[ December 16, 2003, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: von Lucke ]

[Elmar Bijlsma]

One thing that is a bit weird is the friendly map edge of the Italians being on the opposite side of the map, it leads to highly game situation. Troops that are routed by my units ran towards my line, surrendering when they got there, without exception. Curiously, vehicle crews don't they actually threatened the cohesio of my line and kiled a truck and a few men until I brought in some armour to deal with them. My captured MkVIb tank crews (survivors of a devastating if suicidal charge) managed to escape n similar fashion.

Most gamey of all was when routing infantry routed through the gap between the oasis and the ridge. By routing through my lines they got out of LOS of the main Italian body, I had my 4 gun damaged cruisers intimidate them into surrendering. Worked a treat.

Fun scenario though, even if I played a the Brits first. I can't imagine what it would be like as Italians with the life expectancy of the Italian AFV.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

Fun scenario though, even if I played a the Brits first. I can't imagine what it would be like as Italians with the life expectancy of the Italian AFV.

Oh, Cruisers actually burn more easily, and I'd believe the 47mm gun packs a bit more of after-armour punch than the 40mm. It also has HE shells. Cruiser is faster and has a quicker turret. But otherwise they're not too different.

[rune]

This one is historical, and I stand by it. There were two roads, one North-South and one East-West there. I covered the fighting on the east-west road. WWII magazine,page 59 for the map.

Second, the Italians were cut off, of course to withdraw they have to try to get through the Aussies, it was the only route open to them.

Last, A bit think? Sorry, historically that is EXACTLY what happened. "By 11:25 the 11th Hussars were down to one tank...at the critical moment the 1st RTR finally arrived."

Real map, real units, real arrival. Sorry other games you played listed it different, i even gor a 1:25000 map of the area and stand by it.

Rune

[rune]

As for from the west, unit historys, include this:

"At 2:30 PM sharp-eyed British soldiers saw a cloud of dust heading towards them. It was teh retreating Italian 10th Army. Combe and O'Connor had wont he race...by two hours. But the enemy outnumbered the British by 5 to 1 in tank and guns".

There are several paragraphs stating how the British beat the Italians to Beda Fomm and had set up the ambush. I again, stand by the scenario.

Oh and one more comment on the attacj, and again i quote:

" Tasked with the breakout at Beda Fomm, Bergonzoli knew his 21st Corps was on its own. Lacking reconnaissance and adequate information, he voted for a short hook EAST through the desert to outflank the British defenders."

The attack came fromt eh East while the British were reinforced from the west,a nd another column attacks from the coastal road.

Rune

[Shep]

Spoiler!!!

The one really good thing I did was leave all the MkVIb tanks behind the ridge line and wait for victory in the armor battle. The cruiser tanks gave about as good as they got, and the Matildas brought decisive victory. Only then did the MG tanks hit the scene to mop up the Italian infantry and no less than 60 vehicle crews who wandered the battlefield aimlessly.

I divided my initial infantry into 3 columns, one toward each objective, and also waited behind slopes or hid in brush until the battle was nearly concluded. I had a couple of Italian crews surrender to my 25 pdr FO.

[Shep]

Rune or Madmatt, would you kindly bump this to the headline, replacing the SOTW Attack on Nibeiwa Fort?

[Sergei]

Originally posted by rune:

Last, A bit think? Sorry, historically that is EXACTLY what happened. "By 11:25 the 11th Hussars were down to one tank...at the critical moment the 1st RTR finally arrived."

Oh, I wasn't complaining. It was fun, IMO. Just that at that point I got around to thinking, "do I REALLY want to see my Italian hero tankers die in their burning M13's?", and the answer to myself was 'no'. So I did the cowardly thing and abused the simple fact that the enemy had taken so heavy losses that it was willing to accept my ceasefire offer... Of course nobody is in doubt about that I would have beaten all of the Matildas if I wanted to, right?!

[Hensworth]

I played it 2-player as the Italians and actually gave my long-suffering buddy a run for his money right to the end, trying to flank and turn the Matildas with my M-13s. This tied them down long enough for the battle to peter out into a draw (he had been a little careless with his weaker armor).

[...................................]

Originally posted by rune:

This one is historical, and I stand by it.

I'm sorry Rune but I think this scenario is almost pure fantasy. If I leave the others to discuss the map and will focus on the units, at the moment you have Australian infantry backed eventually by Matildas.

Beda Fomm was a purely British operation, on the 6th Feb the Australians and any Matildas were harrying the other end of the retreating 10th Army at least 80 miles away around Benghazi.

If you are interested in simulating the real battle on the 6th, you should have Comberforce stretched out denying a north/south coast road with men from the British Rifle Brigade screening the R.H.A. guns directed by Jock Campbell, supported by light tanks from the 11th Hussars.

Throughout the day A13 cruiser tanks from 4th Armoured Brigade attempt to stop the Italian 10th Army overwhelming Comberforce, by attacking from the East, almost running out of ammunition, and eventually receiving help from more cruisers of 7th Armoured Brigade just as things look hopeless.

A quick look at a campaign map will show how inapproprate your choice of Australians is as discussed above, and also why a Matilda could never have been involved. One relativley good thing about the A13 was its speed, and 4th & 7th Armoured spent the previous 48 hours attempting to cover huge distances to cut off the 10th Army cross country. A waddling Matilda would be a totally inappropriate tank to use for that mission, which is why they weren't!

What you have created is just as historical as an Omaha beach scenario where the French army storms ashore backed by Pershing tanks :eek: It might be fun, but it isn't history.

[rune]

Then I suggest you argue with

Moorehead

David Lippman

Thie was NOT the fighting on the first day, it is the fighting after the column was stopped. Lt. Col John Combe was sent with the Combe force to stall the column the first day untill the rest of the division could catch up. I also show a detechment of Free French Marines that fired into delayed action bombs to block trails. Notice, this was NOT a jock column.

As for the attack from the East going west, I already put in that source. As for Matildas, I have pictures of 1st RTR having Matildas. I will yield the point that maybe the pictures are mis-marked, as I found a source that said they had matildas, another that said A9s, and yet another saying light tanks. I just found on a web site another picture os 1 RTR having Matildas. Again, if anyone has better information, would appreciate it.

As for the Infantry, Moorehead and Lippman both mention the Free French Marines, which already shoots down the British only comment. They both state the 2nd Rifle Brigade was with them, and I pulled it up as a mix of units.

So, Saying it was British only is the fantasy. If you have better information on the mix of troops of the Combeforce, I would appreciate it. Again, it was NOT a jock column, nor was it part of the 6th Australian Division. Itg was an ad hoc formation that raced to stop the Italian until the rest of the Division could catch up. Ahhh, just found in my Moorehead book which he also says the hook came from the east on the second day.

Rune

[wadepm]

Michael, Your description of the overall battle may be accurate but you must remember the actual battle field was about 25 miles North-South and almost 10 miles wide. CM can only model a very small part of that, in fact Rune's map is only about 1 km square! The Matilda's seem strange though, even at the end of the battle. I will have to do my own investigation on that.

[rune]

Wadepm,

Focus on 1 RTR, as I stated, I now find 4 sources, each saying something different.

Web Site:

made up of light tanks.

Web Site: Made of A9s and light tanks

Magazine article: Just says 1 RTR and has a picture of a Matilda marked it was part of the 1 RTR.

Web site: Picture of a matilda and says re-fitted in Cairo, no date. Unit marking on the Matilda are DEFINITELY 1 RTR.

So not sure on it.

7th Armoured has NZ, South African and Aussie troops and formations in 1940. When I looked up the 2nd Brigade, I came across an Aussie unit, however, due to the above comments, I did find Free French Marines were DEFINITELY there, but no more on the make of the infantry. Moorehead does state when he got to Beda Fomm immediately after the fighting, he met soem Aussie troops. Not specified enought on how long after. However, his description of the battle does support the other article that on the second day, the Italians tried a hook from the east, and the third day, tried across the sand dunes on the coast. I think they tried all routes to try to escape the trap that was set.

Rune

Rune

[Beta1]

Well its sure a fun one to play as the brits.

SPOILER

Split my starting forces into 3 groups and advanced on a wide front. After an inital unopposed advance I spent the first half of the map falling back dune by dune, killing a fair number of ACs and a few light tanks at each ridge but being more concerned with keeping my cruisers alive so withdrawing rather than risking losing them. Still lost 2 by the time I had withdrawn to the last dune. left a few AT rifle teams around the place to act as eyes so knew roughly the italian strength at this point. As the extra cruisers arrived I sent them to reinforce the groups that had taken losses. The portees moved to provide a backstop incase the italians tried to force the road. When the matildas arrived I had them hunt up the road in a line across the valley floor. The cruisers moved up behind with the portees reversing along behind them. Each dune was retaken with a minimum of fuss as the italians gave up trying to attack the matildas after the first few of their tanks got blown. Am now right back up to the last ridge before the pimple with 10 turns to go. I have infantry in the depression before the pimple and one of my flanking groups of 4 cruisers has LOS to the area around the flag and have cleared any remaining threats from it. So that should be easy enough to take now. The wadi is still in italian hands but the matildas have forced the remaining italian armoured group into a small patch of dead ground surrounding the wadi and another area way off behind the pimple. Estimated enemy strength is 20-25 light tanks, tankettes and portees at the wadi and half that behind the pimple. Italian infantry is lurking in the rough before the wadi preventing the matildas from cresting the last ridge and driving the italian armour off the back of the map. A group of 4 cruisers is currently making a fast run around the other edge of the wadi to try and catch a group of tankettes that have broekn off from the main body of armour (they seem to be trying to escape around the back of the wadi). The truck mounted infantry is now rolling forward as I intend to dismount them and use them to flush the infantry out of the rough in conjunction with the 25pdr FO although having cornered a large amount of italian armour it is tempting to do an experiment on the effect of 88mm artillery on light armour.

Few POWs as yet, only 2 crews. As I think the cruiser groups will have completely surrounded the remaining italians within the next 5 turns I expect that number to rise rapidly.

Current losses 4 cruisers 1 mkIVB (havnt used them except as scouts - once the italian armor is neutrlised they should be good at rounding up the crews), a few scattered infantry losses from long range MGs and a couple of AT rifle teams who decided ignore their cover arcs. One IVB bogged as well.

Currently 58%:42% to me as AI holds all the flags. Not for much longer

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

here is my short AAR: contains spoilers )

played as italian vs. AI. I rushed all my troops except for the tankettes (which i moved to the oasis on the left) up the pimple just behind the rocks (infantry among the rocks). the AI advanced its troops "charge of the light brigade"-style into my amassed tanks. feeling that due to scenario balance mathildas were bound to arrive, i moved up the 75mm autocannones to the front. the mathidas trundled into this trap and were greeted by massive steel mayhem. incredibly I still couldn´t KO a single mathilda, though after the battle i checked and all mathildas had cannon damage and were in panic. 66-34 victory

one strange thing i noticed: the autocannone 75mm does not appear to have a setup time and it can even fire while moving!

[Sergei]

Originally posted by __Yossarian0815:

one strange thing i noticed: the autocannone 75mm does not appear to have a setup time and it can even fire while moving!

Yes, I noted this very same thing. It also happens with British 2pdr portees. I hope this is changed in a patch or something, or at least to me it seems ahistorical.

[Sergei]

By the way - if you read the topic of this thread, it says SPOILER ALERT. Thus no need to warn about spoilers in following posts, unless they are about some other scenario.

[...................................]

So if I read you right you say that you hear 7th Armoured division had some Australians attached to it sometime during 1940, and you have seen a possible picture of a 1RTR Matilda, and this is what you based the battle on? For goodness sake, there must be half a dozen descriptions of the actual battle itself that I have read over the years, why not use one of them rather than just guesses based on odd pictures and general OOBs?

A couple to hand at the moment are Delaforce's 4th Armoured Brigade book (Monty's Marauders), Crucible of War Vol 1 by Barrie Pitt, and The Desert Rats by Robin Neillands.

FWIW I can tell you exactly what constituted Combeforce :

11th Hussars less 2 squadrons.

2nd Battallion Kings Royal Rifle Corps

4th Royal Horse Artillery (one battery)

106th Royal Horse Artillery Anti Tank (one battery)

NB. A slight absence of French and Australians!

4th Armoured Bde consisted of:

7th Hussars (Vickers Mark VI)

2nd Royal Tank Regiment (A13s)

6th Royal Tank Regiment (Cruisers & Vickers)

4th Armoured Brigade started the race towards the battle with 50 A13 cruiser and 95 light tanks, another NB. no matildas!

The first to arrive were 7th Hussars and 2 RTR, light tanks followed by cruisers. They attempted to relieve the pressure on Combeforce on the 5th Feb by racing up and down from the east on the landward flank from of the 10th Army attacking where they could.

On the 6th - which is when your battle is supposed to be, 4th Armoured Brigade did most of the fighting, however late on elements of 7th Armoured brigade began to arrive. 7th Armoured Bde consisted of:

7th Armoured Brigade:

3rd Hussars (Vickers VI)

8th Hussars (Vickers VI)

1st RTR (A9s & A10s)

I cannot trace exact numbers for 7th Armoured Bde, but if you assume a similar balance to 4th Armoured we'll probably be close.

A note about British armoured brigades in 1940/41. Tank squadrons mixed within the brigades so that every regiment had at least one gun armed tank squadron. Therefore Hussars had Cruisers mixed in and vice-versa.

Just to add extra spice I'll add a map of the action. 1st RTR approached via Beda Fomm on the same route earlier used by 2nd RTR.

Your Moorhead quote about meeting Australians after the battle immediately gives itself away - it is after the battle. The 10th Army surrendered en masse and the Australians marched then down from the other end of the Army column in the North rounding up the prisoners. I have a full OOB for the whole Western Desert Force engaged in Operation Compass, and these alleged French Marines are not even listed. The action at Beda Fomm was purely British.

So to reiterate, you not only have the wrong units but the wrong NATION attacking in the wrong direction and with the wrong equipment. A fantasy with what appears to be almost no research, indeed I can almost imagine that Australians and Matildas are included because they are 'cool'.

[Edit] Typo.

[ December 17, 2003, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Pheasant Plucker ]