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Dusty Brits?


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cromwelldust.jpg

not a whole lot to do to allied tanks. so far a light coating of road dust seems to be the most effective. anyone have any reccomendations on allied camoflage on tanks during the war? I've seen a few crusaders and matildas in the northern desert with camo but in western europe everything seems like it stayed olive drab..olive drab with mud. confused.gif

-johnS

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Someone needs to correct the most obvious omission in CM - the fact that British tanks couldn't actually go anywhere because of the price of petrol.

That was until the tea-powered engine was introduced, mind, so maybe BTS have modelled these. The tanks go like lighting for a couple of hours after a fill-up, but then they crawl around until their next 'hit'. The caffeine-free version has more consistent behaviour.

One American armoured division suffered heavy casualties after hearing that British tankers were benefiting greatly from drinking their fuel.

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There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT

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britdust.jpg

I've sent the road-dust shermans mod to Matt and have finished the brit tanks up (road dust and darkened the churchill a bit). Here's a pic. Only thing different is the rear side panel of the churchill has been sharpened up so it's not blurry anymore. I like how they turned out. *shrug*

-johnS

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Guest Madmatt

They will be going up by the end of the week on CMHQ.

Madmatt

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Guest Michael emrys

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

That was until the tea-powered engine was introduced, mind, so maybe BTS have modelled these. The tanks go like lighting for a couple of hours after a fill-up, but then they crawl around until their next 'hit'.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Plus, there's all that time they spend in the loo.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>One American armoured division suffered heavy casualties after hearing that British tankers were benefiting greatly from drinking their fuel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was corrected once they found out about battery acid.

Michael

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger:

anyone have any reccomendations on allied camoflage on tanks during the war? I've seen a few crusaders and matildas in the northern desert with camo but in western europe everything seems like it stayed olive drab..olive drab with mud. confused.gif

-johnS<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tiger check out:

Wise Terence: "D-Day to Berlin".

Covers US, British, and German camouflage, schemes & markings, from June 1944 - May 1945. With many photos and color illustrations.

Regards, John Waters

---------

"It's not everyone telling me it can't be done that bothers me. It's them interrupting me while I'm doing it!"

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Ok

Now if my mind recalls something I read I believe some Brit units adopted a unique paint scheme. If I remember it was either a black and olive pattern (Black blotches) or a deeper green and olive drab that tried to break up the tanks silhouette.

I'm sorry I cannot remember the bloomin place I saw the article but it was in one of my books somewhere.

If I find out I'll get back to you.

Craig

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They look very good. Glad to see someone doing something with the Allied vehicles.

This probably can't be done in the game program but would'nt it be cool to see holes in the tanks where the AT rounds penetrate?

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Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

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Ok

Well here you go - I found what I was talking about. The British 7th Armoured Division adopted a pattern they called "Mickey Mouse" onto their armoured vehicles when in North-western Europe mid 1944 onwards. The pattern was called "Mickey Mouse" as it comprised a solid band of black around the base of the unit and large blobs of black (mouse ears) over the rest of the vehicle.

I've also discovered that another pattern was used in Western Europe mostly by British Guard Units. It was called the dazzle pattern as it looked similar to the scheme used on British warships of the period - jagged black stripes running over and down the sides of the vehicle.

Furthermore it was not unknown for British and American tank crews to use Red Brown on their vehicles to produce a mottled effect similar to that adopted by the Germans.

Tiger - I hope this gives you something to work with.

Craig

[This message has been edited by Aussie Smith (edited 08-16-2000).]

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Maybe the below will help to, a picture would be so much better biggrin.gif.

The British 'Mickey Mouse ear' scheme consisted of a base coat of khaki drab with large areas of matt black generaly hand painted (on deployed AFVs or sprayed at the factory for new AFVs) in a 'cumulus' cloud patteren in interjoined circles on all top areas and down onto the sides, and bottom edges.

British and Canadian tanks were recieved in standard US olive drab, which was generaly repainted on both British & Canadian tanks in British khaki drab at the first opertunity. Buffaloes with the British 79th armored Div were an exception as they kept their olive drab base coat.

Wise's book I refrenced earlier has some color plates illustrateing the pattern as well as detailed text.

Their was also a variation of the pattern that used a bolder scheme with wavy lines & fewer curved edges, (it can be seen on some Bren carrier photos) which was either adapted by some tank units or was applied following a variation of the official 1943 pattern.

Regards, John Waters

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"Make way evil, I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hamster!"

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Wayne said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This probably can't be done in the game program but would'nt it be cool to see holes in the tanks where the AT rounds penetrate?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe detailed damage bmps can be used in CM 2. They're being used in Starfleet Command II....

Anyway shell holes in tanks can be added to the skin and they're very easy to do and realistic looking:

shellhole.jpg

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 08-16-2000).]

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Formerly Babra:

Mickey Mouse Pattern. The Bren Carrier in CM already uses a variation of this. Image from "D-Day to Berlin" by Terrence Wise. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thx FB, one of these eon's I'll get a scanner smile.gif. The plate with the sexton is the variation off the MME pattern to, anyway that gives him something to work with ...

Regards, John Waters

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"Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!!"

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It should be pointed out that Mickey Mouse was used only on light units and soft skins. Tanks (when they used cam) and heavy armour like the Sexton used an irregular black pattern.

I didn't scan that pic at highest quality, so the khaki drab came out looking somewhat brown.

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There are two things you should never do:

Never get involved in a land war in Asia; and

Never try to out-kill a Sicilian!

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I scanned another pic from the same source to show the typical pattern for a tank or AFV. The scanner is brand new and I haven't figured out the nuances of controlling the colour, so I did this one in B&W. The light areas are khaki or olive drab. The dark areas are black. This pattern, although similar, is distinctly different from the Mickey Mouse pattern used on light vehicles.

This is a British Sherman in 1945. Note the early style gun mantlet -- that's something I've been meaning to raise with BTS, but not before compiling more photographic evidence.

Sherman2.jpg

------------------

There are two things you should never do:

Never get involved in a land war in Asia; and

Never try to out-kill a Sicilian!

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I must admit I'm a bit confused as to the standard colours of British-manufactured vehicles in 1944-45 although the majority of books I've seen agree it was 'Shade No.15, Olive Drab'.

Terry Wise's 'D-Day to Berlin' states 'until at least late 1943 this (overall colour) was a matt dark earth...' and in '1944...the basic overall colour was changed to khaki drab, which was very similar to the pre-1943 colour, but with more of a brown tone instead of a yellow one.' He states 'we have for D-Day some vehicles in this new khaki drab,

others in dark earth, possibly a few remaining in the pre-1943 olive green, plus the USA and Canadian vehicles in olive drab.'

He also mentions disruptive camo patterns in black on some vehicles although this seems to have been more common on softskins and light

armour, particularly the 'Mickey Mouse Ear' pattern as Formerly Babra states. A rule with Mickey Mouse seems to be that top surfaces were painted black and the patterns extended from top and bottom edges on the sides.

'British Military Markings' (Revised Edition) by Hodges and Taylor says the colour was Olive Drab with older vehicles in 'SCC No.2, Brown'. It also speculates that Terry Wise is probably using unofficial descriptions for the same colours when he talks about 'Khaki Drab' and 'Dark Earth'.

'D-Day Tank Warfare' by Zaloga and Balin also says the main colour was 'Shade No 15, olive drab' and that 'This colour was very similar to US olive drab...in part to avoid the need to repaint US Lend Lease'

B.T. White in 'Tanks and Other Armoured Fighting Vehicles 1942-45', states of British AFVs, "In 1944, a new instruction laid down that the brown Standard Camouflage Colour No. 2 should be replaced by olive drab, officially known as Shade No. 15...This colour was much like the green used in 1942 but somewhat duller. It was similar to the U.S. Army standard 'olive drab'."

So far so good but what confuses me is an excellent new book by Jean Bouchery called 'The British Soldier, Volume 2' which shows the main overall colour adopted in 1944 as... Bronze Green! A colour completely different colour to the olive drab already described (interestingly the bibliography mentions most of the aforementioned works, so their info

has obviously been disregarded). This is probably a mistake. Bronze Green was certainly used *after* the war and may have been used on a few vehicles in the last couple of months of conflict.

Cheers,

Mike

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Formaly babra said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

There are two things you should never do:

Never get involved in a land war in Asia; and

Never try to out-kill a Sicilian!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being both of Sicilian descent and a big fan of the Princess Bride, I just had to provide the correct quote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by Ben Galanti (edited 08-17-2000).]

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