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Armor: Favorite AFV in Combat Mission


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Guest grunto

American: M4 (all varieties) M5, M18, M24, Greyhound

German: Tiger I, PSW234

British: A27M Cromwell (cod nomencalture)

i like the tiger I because it has a better HE (88mm versus 75mm) cannon than the panther, and it has better side/rear armor if i'm not mistaken. it's a tradeoff versus the panther's frontal protection and better antiarmor 75mm gun.

by 1944 was the panther mixed in fairly evenly with the panzer 4s? were tiger companies only found in elite formations?

the psw234 armored car with the 20mm cannon is a nice infantry support vehicle. it's fast but must avoid enemy armor at all costs. it probably should take out or avoid american .50 cal positions as well.

the cromwell appears to have been the workhorse of the brits. indeed if you're facing german heavy armor with cromwells or shermans, you'd better try and close before engaging.

i'd like to see what a platoon of m5s could do if it broke behind the enemy positions in a large scenario. that 37mm isn't too bad. it has 3 machineguns, right? ol' jeb stewart rides again -g-

ok... here's an operation... the german tiger company holds the town with two support infantry companies and an assortment of artillery and heavy weapons support. over a series of scenarios the allies attack with the kitchen sink. how long can the germans hold out against the sheer weight of allied material superiority? will the good allied commander win a swift victory with a minimum of casualties or will he foolishly grind the operation to near-halt? will the tigers weigh in or be destroyed by batteries of 203mm or 155mm? can the allies bring effective fire to bear amidst a cauldron of screaming meemies? indeed how does infantry - or for that matter armor - carry out an advance amidst large-caliber artillery?

by hiding behind a hill and calling in their own artillery, of course -g-

call it 'road to Metz, Autumn 1944'

man what kind of close-in firepower do ami or brit paratrooper squads have? -g- i've got to get some of those on halftracks in a scenario -g-

it's better than squad leader i tell ya.

andy

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Andy,

The end result of that scenario is solely dependent upon whether the Allies utilized the improved M23A2W+S version of the Kitchen Sink, which featured the non-slip handles, lifetime guaranteed non-tarnishing chrome finish, Water filter with replaceable cartridges built into the improved long faucet and attached Soap Dispenser.

Clearly, as stated in previous posts about the inherent weaknesses of the early versions of the M23 Kitchen Sink, such as scratches to the armor caused by scouring pads and the poor performance of the short barreled faucet would cause the Allies to be quickly dispatched by the German forces in this scenario.

Thus, include the one of the newer versions of the Kitchen Sink, and this has the making of a hell of a scenario.

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CrapGame out

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Guest Germanboy

Personally, I like the Weasel best (note to Steve, do I get to be a Beta tester for all upcoming versions?)

If the Weasel did not make it, my allied favourite is the Universal Carrier, my German favourite is the Schwere Volksfestspüle SdKfz. 1768/1 Ausf. B®, a truly formidable vehicle packing a long-barreled hot/cold combo, stainless steel camo with blood-washoff-guarantee, twin rinse areas, double sink (!!) for pre-rinsing and soaking, and all-round versatility. There are those who suggest it was derived from the Soviet 'Rodina-kitchensinkskaya', originally a much smaller type of equipment delivered to the Soviets under lend-lease in such copious amounts that the Russian term for it was taken from English. Ethan, don't even try to disprove me, you've got your facts all wrong anyway.

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

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US:M36 Jackson. I look forward to having the chance to practice shoot-and-scoot tactics with some decent firepower.

Brits:Achilles, see above.

Germans:Jagdpanzer IV L/70. I know, a vehicle beset with numerous problems, but I just love the look of Guderian's Duck. I've also won more awards with my model of this vehicle than with any of my others, so it has earned a softspot in my heart.

As you can see, I like tank destroyers, despite their flaws. I just find the different tactical doctrines and design choices regarding tank destroyers fascinating.

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"Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you. Take it easy, Dude." -- The Stranger

The Dude abides.

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

If the Weasel did not make it, my allied favourite is the Universal Carrier, my German favourite is the Schwere Volksfestspüle SdKfz. 1768/1 Ausf. B®, a truly formidable vehicle packing a long-barreled hot/cold combo, stainless steel camo with blood-washoff-guarantee, twin rinse areas, double sink (!!) for pre-rinsing and soaking, and all-round versatility. There are those who suggest it was derived from the Soviet 'Rodina-kitchensinkskaya', originally a much smaller type of equipment delivered to the Soviets under lend-lease in such copious amounts that the Russian term for it was taken from English. Ethan, don't even try to disprove me, you've got your facts all wrong anyway.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FACTS!?!? You have the temerity even to speak of facts when anyone with any knowledge of military plumbing knows that no German Volksspüle or Sturmspüle came equipped with a mixing tap?!? I'm not talking about proto-type V-spülen from the Peenemundegeheimklempnereilabor here, I'm talking about fixtures which saw action. The only Axis power to field a mixing tap was the Italians with their Marchetti Spigotto della Cucina 58(e), and that was a failure because the chrome finish, although suited to almost any decor, made it an easy target for enemy fire. Still, the built-in extension spray was ahead of its time and only implemented in post-war American models in the mid-60s.

And you even seem not to realize that despite having large quanitities of the RKS, the Soviets never used them in combat because the toxicity of the water they issued made them a de facto chemical weapon, and they feared retaliation in kind from the Wehrmacht.

I hope your dissertation, at least, evinces a higher quality of research.

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Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

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Guest Germanboy

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu:

FACTS!?!? You have the temerity even to speak of facts when anyone with any knowledge of military plumbing knows that no German Volksspüle or Sturmspüle came equipped with a mixing tap?!? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Ethan, again you have no qualms to make a fool of yourself in public. I pity you. Obviously you are basing you conjectcantankerous argument on the fact that during your stay in England in the 1990s they had no mixing tabs. Well, here's news to you - the simple fact the UK does to this day not know the mixing tab does not mean the Germans did not have it in WW II. As for the Italian Marchetti Cucina, these became deadly to the Allies once the Italians operating them had to hand in their sunglasses and were marched off, leaving the Germans to take over. As this quote by Col. Stacey in 'The Canadian Army 1939-1945' clearly shows. "The 5th Canadian Armoured Division was trying to break through the Hitler Line at this time, when they were hit by an array of dug-in Marchetti Cucinas, operated by their old adversaries from the gully near Ortona, the 90th Panzergrenadier Division. After several failed attempts, it fell to the Seaforth Highlanders to undertake a set-piece attack, breaking through the line. The gallant Highland batallion suffered grievous losses when attacked in the flank by SP Marchetti Cucinas, a bad surprise indeed. The attack failed, Monty had tea in High Wycombe that day" (p.36,997)

I won't even go to your argument about the RKS, weren't you the one who claimed that the Russians could run with them earlier?

So there, maybe I will accept your apologies once you have digested this!

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Well Ethan, again you have no qualms to make a fool of yourself in public. I pity you. Obviously you are basing you conjectcantankerous argument on the fact that during your stay in England in the 1990s they had no mixing tabs. Well, here's news to you - the simple fact the UK does to this day not know the mixing tab does not mean the Germans did not have it in WW II. As for the Italian Marchetti Cucina, these became deadly to the Allies once the Italians operating them had to hand in their sunglasses and were marched off, leaving the Germans to take over. As this quote by Col. Stacey in 'The Canadian Army 1939-1945' clearly shows. "The 5th Canadian Armoured Division was trying to break through the Hitler Line at this time, when they were hit by an array of dug-in Marchetti Cucinas, operated by their old adversaries from the gully near Ortona, the 90th Panzergrenadier Division. After several failed attempts, it fell to the Seaforth Highlanders to undertake a set-piece attack, breaking through the line. The gallant Highland batallion suffered grievous losses when attacked in the flank by SP Marchetti Cucinas, a bad surprise indeed. The attack failed, Monty had tea in High Wycombe that day" (p.36,997)

I won't even go to your argument about the RKS, weren't you the one who claimed that the Russians could run with them earlier?

So there, maybe I will accept your apologies once you have digested this!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So many errors, so little time...

Do you actually think a Wehrmacht or SS unit would use Italian plumbing?? I need only quote Arschschlitz's pithy dismissal of all Italian kitchen fixtures, "Sie sahen gut aus, aber mensch, der Gestank." Why else do you think Rommel arrayed all Cucina units on the flank farthest from the DAK??

As to the Canadians at Ortona, that description of the action is a complete jingoistic fabrication worthy of a Molson commercial. What actually happened is succinctly described by Capitano Luigi Vercotti of the infamous Cucina Nera battalion (one of the die-hard Fascist units that continued cooking after the Italian surrender):

"At Ortona, we faced the 5th Canadian Armoured Division, a unit feared for their utter lack of gastronomic appreciation and their ferocious battle cry, 'It's a Toque, eh!' Fortunately, we had recently received a shipment of salt cod, so we were able to lure them across the line with the prospect of boiled fish and cold Blue. When they sat down, however, we sprung our trap: 50 kilos of garlic and 6 cases of grappa made short work of the Canadians. Our position finally broke, however, when the Seaforth Highlanders showed us what was under their kilts."

No mention of Marchettis there. Furthermore, Vercotti later describes the hard conditions on the Hitler line and specifically mentions the lack of any equipment for the unit to rinse its anchovies. I think my point is made.

As to the state of UK plumbing, the less said the better. When will the powers that be learn the lessons of a century of struggle?

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Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

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I have to go with mantaRay and TZEENCH on this one too: KING TIGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who cares if it's slow.

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Combat Axiom 46. Do unto others, before they do unto you.

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Guest Madmatt

I love them Hetzers...

Madmatt

I think I have a UXB Marchetti Cucina gathering dust in my basement! Been there for 50 years and ain't gone off yet, no need to mess with it I always say...

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All I know is I'm dying to use something with quad anything to chew up some infantry! I don't care if it's a U.S. M16(or is that M13?) with quad .50s or a German Wirbelwind or SdKfz7 with quad 20mm's, I want to see the blood spatter!

Dar

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Hmmm... that's a tough question. But I think I'd have to go with the Tiger I (I've really missed not having one, as we did in the beta demo), the mighty Jagdpanther, and the Wirbelwind, mainly because I enjoy saying Wirbelwind. Try it, say it out loud... it's fun wink.gif

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In fighting and in everyday life you should be determined though calm. Meet the situation without tenseness yet not recklessly, your spirit settled yet unbiased. An elevated spirit is weak and a low spirit is weak. Do not let the enemy see your spirit. -- M.M.

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have to say Panther it has everything going for it .but like most i also have a huge interest in the tigertank it ll pick you off at 2000 yards without a prob and it looks sooooo nice .and you may as well be spitting at it unless your on top of it .

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As usual, the Allied appologists and Axis elitists on this board have overlooked the contribution of the lads from down-under to the war effort!

I refer, of course to the, ANZAC's Model A3 Kitchen Sink. Under pressure to quickly develop domestic Kitchen Sink production by the threat of Japanese invasion, the Australian Armaments Ministry obtained the liscense for the American M43 Kitchen Sink. Though the long-spigot version was already in production in the US at this time, the Aussies prefered the short-spigot variant as it was thought to be easier to manuever in jungle terrain.

Though finished somewhat roughly by other combatants standards -- ie; the flow control knobs where of base pot-metal, and the drain "trap" needed constant monitoring in harsh combat conditions -- the "cook-abura" (as it was affectionately called), had the added advantage of a deep basin and raised knob on the end of the spigot to accomodate the extra striking power of the "sheep watering bucket" AP ammo unique to ANZAC forces. While the heavy calibre of the bucket further decreased the effective range of the A3, the counter-clockwise spin of it's payload came as a complete suprise to the enemy!

While seeing limited deployment in the ETO, the "cook-abura" was used to devastating effect in the Italian Campaign, where the limited range of it's short spigot and heavy payload was not as much of a factor.

But I guess we'll have to wait for CM3 before we get to simulate this fascinating piece of history...

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by von Lucke:

As usual, the Allied appologists and Axis elitists on this board have overlooked the contribution of the lads from down-under to the war effort!

I refer, of course to the, ANZAC's Model A3 Kitchen Sink. Under pressure to quickly develop domestic Kitchen Sink production by the threat of Japanese invasion, the Australian Armaments Ministry obtained the liscense for the American M43 Kitchen Sink. Though the long-spigot version was already in production in the US at this time, the Aussies prefered the short-spigot variant as it was thought to be easier to manuever in jungle terrain.

Though finished somewhat roughly by other combatants standards -- ie; the flow control knobs where of base pot-metal, and the drain "trap" needed constant monitoring in harsh combat conditions -- the "cook-abura" (as it was affectionately called), had the added advantage of a deep basin and raised knob on the end of the spigot to accomodate the extra striking power of the "sheep watering bucket" AP ammo unique to ANZAC forces. While the heavy calibre of the bucket further decreased the effective range of the A3, the counter-clockwise spin of it's payload came as a complete suprise to the enemy!

While seeing limited deployment in the ETO, the "cook-abura" was used to devastating effect in the Italian Campaign, where the limited range of it's short spigot and heavy payload was not as much of a factor.

But I guess we'll have to wait for CM3 before we get to simulate this fascinating piece of history...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, the most successful Australian Combat Plumbing Unit (CPU) was the A2 "Dunny". Unfortunately, they were often in short supply, especially during the early war, which led to the typical Australian infantryman's complaint, "'Struth, there's never a Dunny around when you need one."

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Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

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Guest Germanboy

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by von Lucke:

While seeing limited deployment in the ETO, the "cook-abura" was used to devastating effect in the Italian Campaign, where the limited range of it's short spigot and heavy payload was not as much of a factor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but how did it fare in one-to-one encounters with the SP Marchetti Spigotto della Cucina 58(e)? I'm sure it sucked rocks then, eh?

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Yes, but how did it fare in one-to-one encounters with the SP Marchetti Spigotto della Cucina 58(e)? I'm sure it sucked rocks then, eh?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But it would be able to spot the MSdC 58(e) because its chrome finish would give it away from a distance of several kilometers. Once again, your ignorance of basic combat plumbing astonishes all who encounter it.

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Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CrapGame:

Andy,

The end result of that scenario is solely dependent upon whether the Allies utilized the improved M23A2W+S version of the Kitchen Sink, which featured the non-slip handles, lifetime guaranteed non-tarnishing chrome finish, Water filter with replaceable cartridges built into the improved long faucet and attached Soap Dispenser.

Clearly, as stated in previous posts about the inherent weaknesses of the early versions of the M23 Kitchen Sink, such as scratches to the armor caused by scouring pads and the poor performance of the short barreled faucet would cause the Allies to be quickly dispatched by the German forces in this scenario.

Thus, include the one of the newer versions of the Kitchen Sink, and this has the making of a hell of a scenario.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROTL! Man that is one of the funniest posts I've seen!

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Finally........Maximus...has come back.....to the Forum!!!

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