rlh1138 Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 A question for WWII historians. I recently played a PBEM game in which my opponent brought his Tiger into a position where I could target it with 2 different bazooka teams. (Which was good as he'd killed all my armor). As I targeted with each, the game told me the hit % (pretty good), and the kill possibility - which was zero in both cases. Hmmmm, I say to myself, Looks like the game is telling me a bazooka won't penetrate the armor on this tank. (I had a side shot and a rear shot) I'd thought a bazooka could penetrate any tank's armor, shows how much I know. But, I target anyway hoping to knock a tread off or something and then the bazooka kills the Tiger with one shot. So... my question - in WWII - could/did bazookas kill Tigers?? Or put better, could a bazooka penetrate the armor of a Tiger? And if so, any thoughts on why the game said no chance? U Thanks, Ray 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Never say never in CM. Even on shots with a "kill-none" chance, there is still a very small chance of penetration. Did the tank rotate at all during the turn? If the zooks did not have perfect right-angle shots at the beginning of the turn and then the tank rotated so they did, that would substantially increase the chance of a kill. And yes, there was a silm chance that a zook could kill a tiger in real live, assuming you had a perfect shot to hit the side or rear armor at a right angle, and that you were stupid enough to try in the first place. It didn't happen often, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Killing a Tiger with a Zook in CM depends a LOT on angle. a few points: 1) You NEED a side or rear shot. Barring a really lucky weak point hit, you're never going to KO a Tiger from the front with a zook. 2) You need to have a very close to 'flat' angle shot to have a reasonable chance of a kill. The max penetration of a zook in CM is 90mm (at 0 deg). This means you have a only a little bit of penetration to spare against a Tiger flank or rear (which is mostly 80mm at 0 deg.). If you get a perfect flank shot, a hit *should penetrate most of the time, but your chances go down pretty quickly as the angle increases. Once you get up to a 30 deg. angle, the zook is down to 77mm penetration - just under most of the Tiger's flank and rear plate thickness. So in order to get a decent chance of penetration, you need to get the zook projectile to hit at an angle under about 20 deg. on a Tiger. 3) Actually, your best chance of a KO is a flank, not a rear shot - the Tiger's weak point is the lower hull side armor, which is only 60mm. Of course, only 1 in 3 side hits is going to hit the lower hull. In addition, the side profile gives you a larger target, so you're more likely to hit in the first place. The rear hull armor has a bit of a slope to it (8 deg.), which also makes your job harder. 4) As mentioned, CM's penetration model does have a bit of a random factor to it, so you will sometimes pentrate and KO with a weapon that "can't" penetrate the armor according to the numbers in the vehicle and weapon info windows. Unless you're talking about the rare weak point hit, you do have to be close, though. I'm guessing that Gustav is probably right and the Tiger in your situation rotated a bit before the shot and gave your zook a 'flatter' shot. The other possibility is that you simply got a good 'die roll' on the penetration. This wouldn't have to be a 'weak point' hit if your zook were 'on the edge' of being able to penetrate - say, at the 30 degree angle mentioned above. And, yes, it was a very rare thing, but Tigers were taken out with zooks in Real Life. In fact, because it was such a big deal, the rare instances where it happened tended to get written about. One of my favorite stories is about a couple of guys with a zook who took out a Tiger during the bocage fighting in Normandy. They waited until the Tiger tried to climb over one of the bocage hedges. In the process of climbing the hedge, the Tiger exposed it's belly, and wham!, the GIs got it right in it's soft underside. That's what I call brass balls. The zook team must have been pretty close, and virtually directly in front of the charging Tiger, in order to get that shot. Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermind Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 So lemme get this straight.If you lose all your armor,and have only "zooks" left to KO a Tiger,you would probably do just as well to have your AT team walk up and "knock...knock..knock" on the side of the Tiger and ask them to play fair? Just a lil attempt at humor. [ February 10, 2003, 03:20 AM: Message edited by: Ares_the_Great ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Longstreet Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Believe me it's possible! I recall a TCP/IP battle against a friend of mine and he managed to take out 2 Tigers and a Panther with a zook. A never saw the damn thing, I thougt he was shelling me from a distance 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Yes, used properly the zook could kill any tank. Even from the front it could get lucky against the big cats. If I can use the terrain I actually prefer to sic my zooks after them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Reily Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 I was told by a WWII vet that they were taught, when dealing with tigers, to shoot for the boggie wheels, and then deal with the turret. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Longstreet Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Tracks were indeed the weakest part of the Panther and Tiger Tanks. But it isn't possible to target just the tracks, is it ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KG_Jag Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 In a game I played against the computer I played about a year ago (with ver 1.12), I took out at Jagdtiger with zook. It was a side shot at fairly close range. Did this sort of thing happened on the battlefield? Don't know--we need the input of some WW II vets or their writings for that answer. [ February 10, 2003, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: jagcommander ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlh1138 Posted February 11, 2003 Author Share Posted February 11, 2003 OK - thanks for all the info. I think I got lucky with that shot. FWIW, the Tiger was on a ridge road with a steep fall off to my zook. The zook was shooting from the side and up. So maybe I did get that lower hull shot... Thanks, rlh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Moore Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Originally posted by rlh1138: OK - thanks for all the info. I think I got lucky with that shot. FWIW, the Tiger was on a ridge road with a steep fall off to my zook. The zook was shooting from the side and up. So maybe I did get that lower hull shot... Thanks, rlh Hey! If you want to try a scenario with zooks and Tiger tanks download "Swatting at Tigers" at the Scenario Depot. At least it will allow you to put into practice what you read on this post! Good luck, soldier! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Originally posted by Patrick Moore: Hey! If you want to try a scenario with zooks and Tiger tanks download "Swatting at Tigers" at the Scenario Depot. At least it will allow you to put into practice what you read on this post! Good luck, soldier! I've tried that, and it's a lot of fun. I think I killed several Tigers with zooks in that one. When trying to kill Tigers, it also helps to be VERY close. But heck, I've even killed KTs with zooks a couple of times. And yes, I tend to try to kill tanks with zooks whenever possible. From a gaming standpoint, you're risking a cheaper asset than if you go after it with a tank. Plus, if cover is available, you can often use that to achieve a stealthy approach on the tank. Of course, if the tank has infantry support, it's a lot harder. And in CMBB, the Allies have no zooks! [ February 11, 2003, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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