Stuka Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 While playing VoT as the germans against the AI, I sent a rested, 9 man rifle squad in sneak mode after a US platoon HQ with 2 of their 4 men already dead. Imagine my suprise/horror when the germans walked to 5 metres of the HQ (facing them)and then continued to walk away! At this time the 2 yankees started pistol shoot'in with the result they took out 2 of my squad and left the rest lying on the ground in panic mode. I thought sneak mode let you move quietly until contact was made with the enemy. Was the danger posed by the 2 HQ guys not enough to let the squad override my sneak order? Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Did you "sneak" them toward their target AND give them the order to "Target" the enemey unit while sneaking towards it? Where they Green or Conscripts? just asking? -tom w <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stuka: Was the danger posed by the 2 HQ guys not enough to let the squad override my sneak order? Any thoughts? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 06-06-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 another question. Was the HQ squad hiding? Just because you can see a unit doesn't mean that your men can. Lorak ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Um I'm not sure about that one Lorak... I thought all your units could see EVERYTHING you can see and you can see everything your units can see. That is why there are differnet levels of spotting. If Stuka could identify his target as "a US platoon HQ with 2 of their 4 men already dead (2 casualities)" then they must have been spotted and clearly identified at the highest and most accurate level of info you could have on an enemy unit. That's just my personal interpretation of how spotting works. -tom w <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorak: another question. Was the HQ squad hiding? Just because you can see a unit doesn't mean that your men can. Lorak <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 ok, I could be wrong on that one. But,If thats the case then why does your armor units have to use the hunt command? They should already know where the enemy is. Why when creasting a hill do they have to "spot" an enemy unit and then transverse the turret to fire at them? He should already be pointing at them when he creast the hill. It was my understanding that if a unit is hidden or out of LOS of your unit, then your unit cannot see them, even if you can. Thats why it is good to make your enemy's armor button up. also the only way to close assault enemy armor and have any chance of success. Thats just my take on things. If anyone else has more info I'd love to hear it. Lorak ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Hi Lorak I was asuming that everyone plays with full fog of war on. That could be an issue here. I was figuring that full fog of war is the only way to play. You have a point about tanks cresting hill, yes they can't see the enemy tank but if you can you can tell your tank to target the tank it can't see and it "should" crest the hill with its turret facing in the right direction and the appropriate armour piercing round in the breach, even if it can't see the enemy tank but you can, this we assume is due to excellent radio communications because the concept of "relative spotting" (spotting relative only to the unit that can see the unit) can't accurately be modeled in the game yet. or am I mistaken? -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 > I thought all your units could see > EVERYTHING you can see and you can see > everything your units can see Pretty sure that's not the way it works. Every unit has it's own sightings and I remember reading somewhere from Steve or Charles that sighting ability was linked to the experience of the unit. It sounds like you knew about the HQ's location because some other unit had spotted it and targetted it and caused casualties, but when your new squads were sent to the area they had trouble locating the 2 troublemakers. Just curious, was there anything that could have made spotting them difficult? Forest, smoke, was the HQ in a building? Also, was anyone else shooting at the HQ already at the time??? p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Yes Tom thats true, Full FOW is the only way to play. I assumed that as a given also. I still don't think that they see all the units you see. example) -> movement x=enemy unit O friendly the square is woods. .........:---------------: .........:---------------: (O1)->:-----------(X)-: <---(O2) .........:---------------: .........:---------------: Your unit O1 is moving into the woods towards X. O2 has LOS of the enemy so you can see him. So you move O1 into the woods to assault X because you know he is there. Your O1 unit could still be hit hard and first if the enemy is hiding. They can't see X and are just moving towards his direction until contact is made. Thats how I see it. If I'm wrong I'd like to know. Anyone have any info on this? sorry if my picture is bad. I didn't have a screen shot to use. Lorak P.S. sorry this thing doesn't see spaces. ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring [This message has been edited by Lorak (edited 06-06-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorak: But,If thats the case then why does your armor units have to use the hunt command? They should already know where the enemy is. Why when creasting a hill do they have to "spot" an enemy unit and then transverse the turret to fire at them? He should already be pointing at them when he creast the hill. It was my understanding that if a unit is hidden or out of LOS of your unit, then your unit cannot see them, even if you can. Thats why it is good to make your enemy's armor button up. also the only way to close assault enemy armor and have any chance of success. Thats just my take on things. If anyone else has more info I'd love to hear it. Lorak <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, my understanding on the Armour Hunt Commnand is as follows. The Hunt Command is just another move command where as the initiative is to shoot before moving, or move until it sees a target and then stop and shoot. It's more of how the unit uses the initiative during a move. Move Fast is like "let's haul ass and maybe take a shot if we really have to" Move is like "we're moving out and we'll take a shot or two given the opportunity" Hunt is like "we're on the move and lookin' for targets" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 ok, I'll agree to that. The "hunt" command was a bad example. BUT if your units already saw everything you did then you wouldn't need it. Lorak ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 I think loraks example is correct. The LOS unit does not have to be the attacking unit. If a squad gave a spot report on what it saw, the attacking unit may still have to track it down and locate it. This can be very tedious in thick forest when the enemy is hiding. ------------------ Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Hi Lorak this is a VERY good example -> movement x=enemy unit O friendly the square is woods. .........:---------------: .........:---------------: ...(O1)->:-----------(X)-: <---(O2) .........:---------------: .........:---------------: nice job but it would be my opinion that you are describing a model of spotting that I thought Steve refered to as relative spotting and I'm sure that relative spotting is not in the game. I have been playing the game (perhaps mistakenly) believing that all my units behaved as though they were in theoretical state of the art (year 2000) radio communication with each other with respect to unit spotting. I'm not talking about command radius, just the model of spotting that says if one unit knows where an enemy unit is hiding or located then ALL my other units have that information as well. Perhaps this issue could be cleared up and addressed by Steve or Charles as well. now I'm confused, maybe I've been playing with the wrong assuumptions. thanks for the ----....>> O X graphics it worked well. -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 06-07-2000).] [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 06-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuka Posted June 7, 2000 Author Share Posted June 7, 2000 Thanks for the replies guys, we were in the thick forest at the time but at only 5 metres range my germans should have been able to reach out and poke the HQ guys with their bratwurst sausages! I didn't give the order to target the HQ though, maybe this was the problem but at that range they should have seen the danger for themselves. The idea behind sneak mode is to move quietly and attack targets as they present themselves, is this correct? I could have said move or run but there has to be a benefit to using 'sneak' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 I have had no problem with my troops killing everything in sight using the "RUN" command when assaulting with superior numbers. I just order run, and place the attack spot right on top of the enemy. I also make sure my squad or squad is attacking with a leader. The only problem with that is you must be sure you have an overwhelming force. Duh. ------------------ Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 tom_w, I'm pretty sure that, in Lorak's example, the O1 unit has no idea that the enemy unit is actually there. The player knows that O2 is in contact with the enemy, and can order O1 to move in for a rear attack, but O1 will be unable to do anything about/to the enemy until they actually see them, at which point they'll have to orient correctly, aim, and fire. In Stuka's original situation, that platoon might well have, somehow, completely missed their own spotting check on the HQ unit. Even though Stuka knew about the HQ and could order his squad into a position from which they should have been able to attack the HQ, it was still up to the squad to spot the enemy and take it under fire. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Hi Doug ok, I understand your position and interpretation BUT... If, in Lorak's example, you as the commander, can see the enemy unit them you can tell unit 01 to target that unit, I guess actually I'm assuming an LOS so the target line turns blue and gives stats related to firepower and exposure, but in this case, if the LOS is broken, I'm pretty sure that you can still tell friendly units to target the enemy unit it can't see and then direct them to move towards the enemy's last known position and I expect through the magic of radio communication that unit 01 that cannot see the enemy has the SAME intel and info on it as unit 02 that has a clear LOS to it and there will open fire at it's "hidden" target when it moves to a position that has LOS to enemy unit. Steve Charles? Can you help out here, I think some others here are under the impression you have fully implemented "relative spotting" (as described by Steve as the concept that some units "see" some things some other units cannot.) I thought the game was coded with the intended "feature" that all units had the same level of intel and communication with each other that PERFECT radio communications would provide, so that once one friendly unit, spots, locates and identifies an enemy unit that info comes up and the screen and is then available to you as the commander (you can see it) and then the same level of info or intel is instantly available to ALL other friendly units, via the Magic radio. As it is my understanding and experience that you can target enemy units that are out of LOS of a friendly unit then have the friendly unit move to a new postion that is likely to allow LOF and LOS to the enemy and expect that it will continue to target that enemy unit even when it is out of LOS until it acquires LOS and LOF as per "radio" instructions regarding the enemy's location as determined by a friendly unit with LOS to the "hidden" enemy unit. That's my understanding of spotting and inter unit "radio" communication anyway. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but Steve has stated that relative spotting, is not in this version at this time. -tom w <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Beman: tom_w, I'm pretty sure that, in Lorak's example, the O1 unit has no idea that the enemy unit is actually there. The player knows that O2 is in contact with the enemy, and can order O1 to move in for a rear attack, but O1 will be unable to do anything about/to the enemy until they actually see them, at which point they'll have to orient correctly, aim, and fire. DjB<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 06-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Tom, telling an infantry unit to target an enemy infantry unit works the same as with tanks I think. In other words, the infantry will hold your order for a few seconds, but if the target you want them to hit doesn't come into LOS soon after the turn starts (or a threat presents itself) that infantry unit will fall back on the TacAI. If, after moving a little further, your unit sees that enemy you originally targeted, they may, under control of the TacAI, target that unit. You can't tell an infantry unit to target an out-of-LOS enemy and have them hold that line all turn, same as with tanks. They'll look for that target, but if they don't see it or see something better/more threatening, they'll break your target orders and shoot with the TacAI in control. If they see your originally intended target later in their movement, they may fire at that, or they may continue firing at other targets if the TacAI thinks those other targets are more important. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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