VoT Spoiler Alert Has anyone Played as the Geramans and won against a GOOD Yank Human

[Guest tom w]

I played VoT three times over the past weekend as the Americans against experienced wargamers that were NEW to CM. After playing the three games, with all the American Arty at my disposal, I found it difficult to believe the

Germans's have a chance. So I fired up a game as the German's against the U.S AI and (with out revisiting the discussion about the quality of the AI built into the game) I found the US AI was not that difficult to beat, but I was not dissapointed it was a good game.

I'm sorry won't have much extra time to play for awhile but I would like to request a PBEM game against a Skilled player who would be happy to take the German's in VoT with even forces in a PBEM game.

Has anyone won VoT as the Geramans against a good human opponent playing the American's?

I must admit that Panther At first scarred me to death it just looks invincible and during the first game I was lucky enough to knock out its main gun with a direct turret hit with the Arty on the second turn it entered the game (that REALLY pissed off my friend). In the next two times I played I had to slug it out with the Shermans (you need at least 4-5 to take it down) the first time I took it out from 175 meters with a direct frontal shot on its lower hull (I had two shermans back there waiting for it to show up, ko'd it on the FIRST shot from a frontal aspect!) and the last time took it out with a flank shot from about 500 meters with 6 Shermans spread out on hills all over the map, after it knocked two of them out in the same minute, both first shot k-kills

-tom w

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

G. S. Patton <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by tom w (edited 05-24-2000).]

[Mike D]

POSSIBLE SPOILER INFO.

READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!

I'm interested in this as well. I'm playing my friend right now and things have not gone well for him as the Germans. He contends that the Germans have no chance whatsoever to win this scenario. I would like to hear that he is wrong, although I have no doubts whatsoever that this is a tough one for the Wehrmacht boys.

Right now I'd have to agree with him. It's turn 15 or 16, I've virtually wiped out his his entire force save for a remnant of a squad or two, schreck team or two hiding out, and a bunch of crews that is all he has left defending the final victory hill. Which I'm about to take in the next turn or so. I've taken some fair losses myself, but have all the tanks except one of the 105's that got KO'd early by the 75mm bunker. We are waiting for his reinforcements to arrive to see if he can make any headway, but it isn't looking good.

Since we'll be reversing sides and starting a new game tonight, guess I'll find out first hand just how tough it will be. I'll let you know if I have any luck.

In my view to this point there seem to be two main "problems" for lack of a better word with this scenario. One, US player has way too much artillery. One of the 105 spotters should be dropped and/or the fire missions for one of them should be split between the two FO's. One of the 81mm mortars should probably be dropped as well. The other thing is that the German reinforcements show up way too late to do them much good. I've already KO'd most of the entire German force and I'm sitting right on the doorstep of where the German reinforcements are going to arrive and control all the victory locations. What chance does the German player have when they get to this point and their reinforcements havn't even showed up yet? And with the agressive nature of many human opponents, this sounds like a fairly common occurence in this scenario where the US forces have already pushed all the way across the map before the Panther and his friends even arrive.

Mikester out.

[This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 05-24-2000).]

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Well i Played my first match blind against Ron A and Lost to him - He is a very good player

I then played it again at +25 and won this time but I got a good spot of luck inthat one.

I also played VS and we usually have close matches -this time He got me as allies yet I put up a good fight

So I would have to say +25 is a better setting for a good match - as the win against Ron came down to a turn of bad luck. Had this not have occured as such it would've been a very close game

I am about to have another match with VS and I'm letting him have +25 as Jerries I'll post the results later

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Guest tom w]

Thanks

Mike, your expereince is the same as mine.Its good to hear other people who feel the same way. That Damn American Artillary (if used effectively) is very very lethal. In the three games I've used it I have never run out of arty before knocking out ALL the bunkers, after that just advance slow and steady and be careful, and take the hills one at a time, in a steady advance and watch for the mines and avoid the barb wire. Use the Shermans to ppound what ever MG are left and watch out for Schrecks, keep the reccomended 200 meters away from any unknown woods, or buildings.

On that barbed wired issue I have never intentionally tried to cross barbed wire with any unit, but once I was careless iwth one way point and did get an infantry unit hung up in a barbed wire obstacle for a few extra minutes.

Mike? Have you run infantry through barbed wire and experienced what the others were saying about the barbed wire having no effect?

-tom w

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

G. S. Patton <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Mike D]

Tom,

Barbed wire didn't seem to be a problem. Simply because he tried to predict my Schwerpunkt (main attack focus) and didn't guess correctly. So I saw where most of the wire was deployed (later on that is), but never actually moved my units through that area.

The other thing that my friend complained about is that I did walk a couple of units through a minefield and nothing ever happened. He was not too happy, but I attribute it to being incredibly lucky. Plus some of them (not sure if it is the one he is referring to) I could see after awhile as the mine markers started to show up. I think at best I got 1 guy killed by a mine.

In game I played as Ami's vs. the computer though things were different. I easily got 10-12 guys killed on mines. In one case four guys in a 12 man squad bought the farm instantly. As for wire in that one, no problem there either. Most of the wire seems to be placed somewhere in the trees, or else out in plain sight. I don't go running through woods, so I seem to always spot the stuff before actually moving across it. As a result, up to this point, I've always just gone around the stuff.

Mikester out.

[Joe Shaw]

I just completed a double blind PBEM game of VOT as the Germans and got my head handed to me. My defeat was partially a result of some poor placements on my part and, of course, mostly due to good play by my opponent. My first thought was that the scenario was heavily stacked against the Germans, after waiting and waiting and waiting for the damned Panther to show up it seemed even more so. My 150 gun was killed on the first turn and my 75 pillbox was smoked most of the game before it fell to a gunslit hit. I managed to get a gun hit on one of the 105 Shermans and the Panther did the same to a 75 Sherman before a 105 arty round killed my last chance to do more damage to the Ami tanks.

In retrospect, I think the Germans can win this one, but it isn't going to be easy and it's going to depend on some luck. I think that played double blind the Germans would have a very tough time. We have a rematch starting tonight, maybe I'll take the Germans again and see if I can do better.

Joe

[109 Gustav]

Its important to put the gun in a place where it can't be easily taken out from all directions. Try to set it up somewhere that you can bring down fire from the flanks while avoiding those tanks. Hold fire until there are no tanks that can readily hit you. You might want to shoot early, before the 4 sherms show up. Used well, that gun can wipe out several squads before it eventually gets KOd.

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There is nothing certain about war except that one side won't win.

-Ian Hamilton 1920

[Guest tom w]

OK

But where can you put that Bunker/pillbox so it won't get shelled. As the American, there is no need to advance any tanks anywhere near any concrete pillbox (either one) until you have used the arty to KO them both and if you wait long enough and drop enough arty sooner or later those two concrete pill boxes will get taken out and then it doesn't matter whether it was an anti tank gun or a MG that was in it.

I will try the German setup again tonight but I don't think there is any place on the map that the Yank arty can't drop shells on that is any kind of a decent defensive position for the concrete pillbox with the anti-tank gun in it.

The German side of VoT (unmodified) requires IMHO a great deal of luck to win that scenario against any human opponent who is wise enough to hold back until the arty has KO'd all the bunkers and pillboxes, after that the Shermans are then a very deadly threat.

-tom w

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

Its important to put the gun in a place where it can't be easily taken out from all directions. Try to set it up somewhere that you can bring down fire from the flanks while avoiding those tanks. Hold fire until there are no tanks that can readily hit you. You might want to shoot early, before the 4 sherms show up. Used well, that gun can wipe out several squads before it eventually gets KOd.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

G. S. Patton <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by tom w (edited 05-24-2000).]

[Hawk]

Dag Helge and Paul C.C: DON'T YOU DEAR READ THIS!!!

I am curently playing VoT as German in two PBEMs. Game 1 is against a good player (Dag Helge) and we both used the default setup (I only moved the barbwire a bit). At turn 13 he has destroyed the bunkers, inf-gun and mortars (who died during an artillery barrage against the 75mm bunker). My 75 got one 105 Sherman, and I've also killed some inf. He is now probing in force in the center and (my) right, and is hastily moving foward on my left flank. I haven't played the American side yet (to keep FOW for as long as possible), but I know more or less what he has. My only hope now is pinned on the Panther, and the fact that he has used almost all his arty on the bunkers, but I afraid he'll whupp my heinie to kingdom come in this game!

In game 2, I'm playing against Paul, who is an inexperienced player. I have modified the setup somewhat. We're only on turn 6 (IIRC) and he's just killed my inf-gun, but not much else. The 75mm bunker has been shrouded in smoke almost from the start It's to early to say anything about this game, but I hope I'll do better than in game 1!

Hawk

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Our's is not to reason "why", our's is but to do and die!

[This message has been edited by Hawk (edited 05-25-2000).]

[Darstand]

I have only played against the computer as Germans in VoT. The first game, I barly managed a minor victory, the second a Technical victory. My sugestion ATTACK. I also hold back(hide)the IG until the Panther shows up.

[Jarmo]

I've played this two times against mr.K,

first both blind, me as germans.

He approached steadily, rolled over my

troops and won easily.

Second time, we decided the germans deserve

a +25%, I as americans. I knew what he had,

so I just bombarded his AT pillbox and then

smashed the rest. Another easy victory for

americans.

[Guest tom w]

I think this has been discussed before but it became very clear to me last night that, even if the bunkers and pillboxes are successfully hidden from the LOS of the american arty spotting locations on that BIG hill, they will ONLY remain hidden and out of sight until they open fire.

AND as pointed out by others, there seems to be NO way to keep all those bunkers and pillboxes from opening up on ANY available target, they then give their locations away and it's BOMB's away with the arty until they are KO'd suprressed routed, broken or abandoned. I think this is a big concern, if I understand the result of the previous threads about this there is no way to set hide or ambush marker that will prevent the weapons in those bunkers and pillboxes from opening fire on ANY thing they see, at that point any advantage that was to be had by atempting to conceal these things in somewhat hidden locations from the american arty spotters on the BIG hill is instantly LOST and then a minute or two later the arty rains in on these newly exposed and identified targets. Even when there is NO direct LOS to these concealed targets, as soon as ANY American unit spots these concrete bunkers they call in arty, I think this realistic that the arty spotters do not need direct LOS to the bunkers, what concerns me is that there is no way to conceal or camouflage (sp?) the concrete bunkers AND keep them from opening fire on the first target they can see.

I think this is a problem that has been identified. I think this problem with bunkers and pillboxes opening fire on the first unit they see is an issue that should be addressed and it should be on "The List" as it seriously compromises the German chance of even a marginal victory in an unmodified force pool battle in VoT.

As we have seen, even by giving the Germans a 25% force pool bonus, they have still lost against a well executed and skillful American assualt.

Any comments?

-tom w

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

G. S. Patton <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by tom w (edited 05-25-2000).]

[ColumbusOHGamer]

I've played VoT three times as Ger against the AI. The first time I was crushed due to my extremly poor placement of bunkers (couldn't wait to play!)and losing the 75AT and IG by turn 6. The next two times I had the games won by turn 20-22, just mop up after that. There is a couple of things to do that can help off-set the Ami arty, but it would give away my entire game-plan. I'd like to play an average level (same as me) player in a PBEM game. I'd like to see how well my ideas work against a real opponent. Anyone care to do this? After I've played a couple of them, I'll post some results on the board.

Thanks.

COG

[This message has been edited by ColumbusOHGamer (edited 05-25-2000).]

[Guest tom w]

OK

I've played VoT 4 times, 3 as the Americans against human opponents and once as the Germans against the AI

My time is limited so I'm not so sure I can get into a good PBEM game until next week or maybe sometime Sunday. I'll sty in touch on this board in this thread ok?

-tom w

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ColumbusOHGamer:

I'd like to play an average level (same as me) player in a PBEM game. I'd like to see how well my ideas work against a real opponent. Anyone care to do this? After I've played a couple of them, I'll post some results on the board.

Thanks.

COG<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

123

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

G. S. Patton <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Black Sabot]

I have played VoT numerous times against both the AI and PBEM and it's my belief that the Germans (at default settings) have the firepower needed to win this scenario. IMO, what the Germans need is not a 25% increase in forces, but a 25% increase in the amount of cover on their side. Consider this...

Roughly half of the Germans firepower is tied to fixed implacements (Bunkers, Pillboxes, 150mm IG). Another 10-15% are MG teams, mortars, and shrecks. Although they are in theory mobile, they are only effective from a static position. This means that the German player, after set-up, will do very little manuevering during the battle. This forces the German player into a static defense, and gives the amis (with an abundance of arty and excellent LOS from their hill position) a clear advantage. If one could increase the cover by 25% (my guess) then:

A) your fixed implacements benefit by making them harder to spot

your manuever elements (inf. platoons) can re-deploy without a storm of fire coming down on their heads.

Sure an increase in force strength would be welcomed, but it will only give you more static targets. What the Germans need is to negate the arty advantage, cover is the only thing (short of a counter-battery duel)that would do that.

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"I do like to see the arms and legs fly"

[ColumbusOHGamer]

Sabot: In general, I agree with your idea. The game can be won by Ger with no additional troops. It would be easier if they had the ability to manuver in the rear areas, but I do think there are 2-3 good places where the Ger can manuver well enough.

tom: Email me if you want to set something up for next week.

Thanks.

COG

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'd like to play an average level (same as me) player in a PBEM game. I'd like to see how well my ideas work against a real opponent. Anyone care to do this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you interested, I'll take you up. I've played the Germans several times against human opponents, and still haven't found a setup that really works.

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Dan Brown dbrown@owc.net

[Black Sabot]

COG,

Just curious, where are those locations, and what do you mean by manuever?

If you mean shifting squads from wood tile to wood tile, i agree there are numerous places. But to move your LH platoon unobserved to re-inforce Plomville , thats a different matter altogether.

Just curious

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"I do like to see the arms and legs fly"

[KingMikeH]

Just wanted to throw up a little comment about the balance discussion and VoT.

Remember that these scenarios only maitain their integrity thru one playing, when the US player has no idea about the German infantry strength, no report on the presence of the IG, no idea where the German MLR begins due to setup limitations, and plays 20 turns of the game with nary a tank in sight then gets to tangle with a Panther.

To play against a human opponent multiple times is an interesting exercise, but one of the major factors in playing an attacker is how you deal with the initial ignorance of force structure and placement. Too cautious and you run out of time, too aggressive and you lose men unnecesarily.

Just two cents.

KingMike

[ColumbusOHGamer]

Mike,

Until the game is shipped and we can play a randomly generated scenario, we're stuck with playing opponents that know what we have and when we have it. It's good practice anyway. I treat it as a challenge to be the underdog Germans in VoT. I hate losing, but I hate even more to win because the other guy didn't have enough equipment. It's OK to open a can of whoopass on him if it's even though.

I think that if those players who think the Germans are under-equiped (against AI) should try again with different tactics. Can't say what mine are cause I don't want to give away any advantage, but there are always alternatives.

Thanks

COG

[Guest tom w]

COG and I both read and contribute to this thread....

and we are begining a PBEM game tonight with COG as the Germans (at even strength, my he is brave) and myself taking the Americans.

So I doubt that COG will divulge any secrets here. I promise to give him a good game as I have played VoT as the American to a victory 4 times so far against human opponents (3 games human one game against AI, first Time I played to a victory in a double blind game against a human player new to CM, but German war history savy none the less)

Perhaps we can update you all with brief after action reports we will be playing slowly at maybe one turn per day.

-tom w

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ColumbusOHGamer:

I think that if those players who think the Germans are under-equiped (against AI) should try again with different tactics. Can't say what mine are cause I don't want to give away any advantage, but there are always alternatives.

Thanks

COG<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Guest tom w]

Just thought some new folks might want to read this thread as well as I think BlackSabot has made one of the best points so far

What is needed is more Cover not more firepower.

That makes sense to me.

-tom w

[Guest Captain Foobar]

Now I am only on my 3rd time through in VoT, but I think that the Germans have a good chance to succeed IF you deploy your squads correctly.

I think that the biggest mistake is to place your Main Line of Resistance too far forward.

I like to hold most of my squads back at my "30 yard line" , and put 10%-20% up in foxholed harrassment positions, BUT ONLY if those forward positions are covered by a hidden mg, IG, etc. Hiding is the key, IMO.

Also, that 75mm can be a tough nut to crack, and by placing it on hill 209(default) you force the US to cover the hill with smoke, and smoke is not bombs.... By the time the Panther arrives, the way I have it planned, roughly 35% of my forces have been spotted, and if they arent spotted, they can't be mulched by 105's.

Now obviously this style of defense will have some trouble against a very bold commander.( and they seem to get more bold every time they play this map, don't they?)

I try to punish them for moving too quickly, with hidden mg's who are in obstructed LOS position from the main US line, meaning that sherman can't see the mg squad from their safe rear positions, they have to come into schreck range to dig me out, and my shreck is hidden, ready, and waiting!!!

And all of this might JUST keep you alive long enough for the Panther to show up and avenge you.

I still havent come up with an effective counter to the US driving their 2 105 shermies up your right flank. If you rotate the 75mm bunker on hill 209 too far to the right, he wont be able to handle to 4 shermans.....

[aka_tom_w]

An old topic re-visted here soley for the benefit of new members who may not have read some of our more interesting and controversial

posts/threads from the past.

-tom w

[Mikester]

My friend and I are on about turn 22 of our latest VoT experiment w/ me playing the Germans and no advantage for either side. I made some setup mistakes that didn't help me much, but really were not that dertimental. He is on hill 209 now and battling it out w/ my reinforcing platoon. They will be overwhelmed by his massive force up there in about 2-3 minutes though. I also still have most of a platoon just behind the hill on the victory flag location on the German right. The Panther is ranging freely and has already taken out one of the 4 shermans he had left. He's about to clock the next one as well which is lined up in his sights at just over 200m. That will only leave him one sherman 105 and the 76. If I can take them out and get over to my guys on the small objective flag I might be able to hold it. If I can do this and kill his tanks and some of his men along the way I feel I might have a chance at him only getting a minor victory, or maybe even a draw. I'll keep you posted.

Mike D

aka Mikester