Manieri, how'd your exam go?

[FutbolHead]

Originally posted by Stuka:

"Now I'm not trying to start an arguement here,"

That's good because he admitted he cheated.

but the point I'm trying to make is that essentially, cheating is gaining an unfair advantage over the other guy, correct?

Not necessarily. Let's see what the dictionary says:

cheat (cht)

v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats.

v. tr.

To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.

To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.

To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.

To elude; escape: cheat death.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition

Copyright © 1996, 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company

Nope, nothing about unfair advantage.

"Now having parents pay for your colledge education when you aren't smart enough to have earned a scholarship on your own is an unfair advantage, especially as far as the underpriveledged,(but intelligent) guy is concerned."

Huh?? Where is the rule or law that says you have to get a scholarship to be fair about getting a college education? Paying college tuition to go to college is about as straight-up as it gets. I can't even see how you see this as "cheating". There is no logic there. But by your logic, if I win a spelling bee because I'm smarter than the other people, I have an unfair advantage and I'm cheating. If my soccer team has better atheletes and we win a game, I'm cheating because I have an unfair advantage. If I have more money than other people and I can afford more stuff in life, I'm cheating because it isn't fair. Please tell me your trolling with this logic. There are lots of things about life that aren't fair, that have absolutely nothing to do with cheating.

"Paying cash to tradesmen IS a form of cheating, it cheats the government of revenue for which all other taxpayers have to make up. You see,?"

No it's not. If the tradesman pays the appropriate percentage of tax for the sales price of the product, he's abidding by the law and there is no cheating there. The government doesn't fix the price of his merchandise, the tradesman does. The government only sets the tax rate. There are real examples of cheating you could be using, and this one isn't one of them.

"it's a grey area where every man has to draw his own line.

When you prepare your tax return, do you engage in "tax minimisation" or plain "tax dodging"?"

I abid by the law in filing my taxes. I claim all my income and I claim all the exemptions that legally apply. There is nothing "cheating" or unlawful about claiming all of the legal exemptions you can claim. That's why the law provides for exemptions. So all people who meet their criteria can use them. Your assumption seems to be that all people cheat on their taxes.

"I personally don't care whether capt'n manieri cheats or not as I know that one day a time will come where he cannot cheat and his previous actions will come back and bite him on the arse.

But I will defend his right to make his own decisions without fear or prejudice, be they right or wrong."

Defend his right to make decisions without fear or prejudice, be they right or wrong. That sounds nice, but it's BS. I guess it's unfair to have laws, because someone may fear making a decision to commit an illegal act. We shouldn't prejudice against those people who decide to commit rape or murder. We don't want to hurt there feelings or impede their right to make decisions. These are certainly more extreme examples of decision making, but they fit the principle of the logic you set forth.

"This thread is totally off base for CM, but it is a refreshing change from the "where's my CM?" or "woo hoo, I got it" ones."

At any rate, even if all of the above examples were excellent examples of cheating, it still doesn't change the fact that Capt. admitted before a large forum of people that he cheated on a test, which spoke of his character. Now, if I deduce correctly, the vast majority of "wargamers" (people likely to be in this forum) are probably people who pay lots of attention to rules. It's what makes the competition between them as level as possible. Now I know that your logic says that if one of those wargamers is smarter than the other, that isn't fair, but I would venture to say that not alot of other people on here would agree with that premise. They would rather have the playing field leveled by a system of rules for the expressed intent of finding out who is smarter, which wargamer was better. When someone announces that they cheat, and proudly I might add, that would tend to be the person that many of these guys might not want to play with anymore. At least I hope I'm right on that.

However, if a little moral pressure from a group of people who have a related interest as the Capt., namely CM, can help him realize that cheating and being proud of cheating are unacceptable types of conduct and they aren't appreciated here, maybe he can learn something about life. Something more than, everyone does it so it's okay if it's small. Something other than we don't want him to feel bad just because he's a cheater and he makes poor decision. How he feels about himself is more important than the decisions he makes.

I, for one, don't want to be a party to that line of thinking.

"P.S. Futbolhead, complete your profile a little,it'd be nice to know where and who I'm morally sparring with "

For you, anything.

[FutbolHead]

One other small detail. You (Stuka) said this thread is "off topic". Who started this thread anyway???

[Stuka]

Thanks for completing the profile Futbol, I think we're agreeing on the topic but disagreeing on our attitudes towards it. Maybe its because of the different education and taxation systems in our countries.

In this country, higher education is essentially free, although that is changing nowadays towards a more user pays system. I am half way through my 2nd degree and its a hellava long slog when you also work full time (I'm talking 6 years to complete) and I severely doubt that I would have even 1 degree if it cost $100K to complete as I beleive a law degree costs in the US ( pls correct me if my info is incorrect here) so perhaps you can excuse me if I have an attitude towards those who can achieve these educations because of the size of their wallets rather than the size of their brains.

Workers here pay tax on the size of their incomes, not the materials they use (although that also is changing) so for work done for cash which is not declared, effectively reduces the tax burden for that particular man. This is what our new tax system is trying to stamp out...

A quick note on the tax avoidance question, Kerry Packer, Australia's wealthiest man, who earns more in 10 minutes than I do in a year, the man who paid Elton John $1M to sing at his son's wedding ( which itself cost $15M) paid personal tax for the last 3 yrs of the grand sum of $15.

Was he cheating? Legally perhaps not, but morally..........?

[Stuka]

P.S. There's nothing wrong with an off topic thread as long as it is entertaining.

This one was meant to be fun, but trust somone to take it seriously and start beating their chest and getting all bent out of shape.

Lighten up!

(edited for spelling mistakes, it late here!)

[This message has been edited by Stuka (edited 06-29-2000).]

[FutbolHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stuka:

P.S. There's nothing wrong with an off topic thread as long as it is entertaining.

This one was meant to be fun, but trust somone to take it seriously and start beating their chest and getting all bent out of shape.

Lighten up!

(edited for spelling mistakes, it late here!)

[This message has been edited by Stuka (edited 06-29-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I point out my disdain for someone's admission to wrongdoing and suddenly I'm beating my chest and getting bent out of shape. Whatever. Clearly we view integrity differently. I happen to think it's important. And as far as "lightening up", I believe my response was within context of the seriousness of the discussion. Again we differ I'm sure. However, I feel I have presented my position well enough at this point that I need not discuss it further. I just didn't feel someone cheating on their exam was viewed best as a "fun" topic.

Perhaps we will discuss a different topic sometime that is "fun".

[dalem]

Stuka-

You typed

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...so perhaps you can excuse me if I have an attitude towards those who can achieve these educations because of the size of their wallets rather than the size of their brains.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that's certainly interesting. The standard here in the U.S. is that you will be paying for your education, and that you are fortunate if you can qualify for the scholarships that are available. So I admire folks who earned their scholarships, but I certainly don't look down on or have any 'attitude' towards those like myself, whose parents could afford to float the bill and did so.

I believe that devaluing my education because it was paid for is as senseless as devaluing yours because you didn't pay for it.

-dale

[G4A]

Let's see what another dictionary has to say.

1. (foll. by of) deprive of (cheated of a chance to reply).

2. intr. gain unfair advantage by deception or breaking rules, esp. in a game or examination.

3. tr. avoid (something undesirable) by luck or skill (cheated the bad weather).

4. tr. archaic divert attention from, beguile (time, tedium, etc.)

- Concise Oxford Dictionary.

------------------

"Oh, German! I'm sorry, I thought there was something wrong with you."

[FutbolHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by G4A:

Let's see what another dictionary has to say.

snip

2. intr. gain unfair advantage by deception or breaking rules, esp. in a game or examination.

snip

- Concise Oxford Dictionary.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You'll note that the unfair advantage is specified as being gained by deception or breaking the rules, not simply unfair advantage. However, I concede that the dictionary you reference includes that phrase. The point I made was that Stuka appears to consider any honestly gained resource as an unfair advantage to those who did not have that resource. Hard work, money, benevolent parents, studying, all those things make it "unfair" for the person who does not have or does not utilize those resources.

[Bobbaro]

Whether Stuka's examples were entirely apt to the point, he made would be moot if one discredits that one individual in Western Civilization, who is credited therein for it's standards of morality; "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at - - -". And, it is not necessary to entirely credit all that is laid at the feet of that one individual to admire the astuteness of a great deal of that which is attributed. I endorse Stuka's position without getting into dots and tittles of his examples. Regardless of their merit, his point holds water for me.

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stuka:

Does Tori Spelling cheat when she gets her dad to cast her in one of his shows?

You see gentlemen, cheating has a million forms and although I don't like it I am honest enough to admit that I am guilty of at least some of them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, you may be right about a certain amount of 'cheating' going on in life, but if it turns out that you have anything to do with keeping Tori Spelling working and inflicted on the American people, than you're going down, man!

------------------

After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[sniperscope]

Guys just my 2 cents here, I don't give a crap about the Capt. Cheating. When he gets older he will see the light. As for me, I just look forward to your posts on Combat Mission.

sniperscope

[This message has been edited by sniperscope (edited 06-29-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Good way to end this thread Too far off topic for my tastes!

Steve