fatherof4 Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 My buddy and I want to play a PBEM game of Valley of Trouble (VoT) but we want it to be a "fair" game. Some people we've talked to about VoT play balance say that the Germans need more troops to make it competitive. He's only played the German side and I've only played the American side so we can't be completely objective. In order to get a wider sampling of opinion, we thought polling the forum would be a good way of settling this. What do you think of the play balance of VoT? A. The scenario is fine the way it is. The Germans don't need any more help. B. The Germans need a little boost. They should get 25% more troops. C. This scenario isn't close to being fair to the German side. They have to have 50% more troops. Thanks in advance, Glenn ------------------ As of 4/18/00, I'm a fatherof6 but I'm too busy now to change my name! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hunt52 Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 The first time I played (blind) as the Germans I got hosed (I attribute this to the fact that Eridanman is good.) but I have beaten him as the Germans as well. I would go with A. The Germans can win but is it tough. - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 Well, as for A, the time I played it with no advantage as the Germans, I got my ass kicked. As for B, I think 25% is about right. Although I haven't played with 25%, my answer to C will answer that. So as for C, I played with 50% and kicked the ever loving crap out of the Americans. I'm playing a buddy of mine over PBEM as the Americans with even strength and I'm kicking the crap out of him and it's only Turn 10. ------------------ "Why don't we say that we took this one chance, and fought!" "Stupid humans. Hahahahahahaha!" --from the film Battlefield Earth [This message has been edited by Ol' Blood & Guts (edited 05-19-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwin Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 The Americans definitely have an advantage but I dont think enough so to give the Germans the 25%. For me as germans it is intended to be a hard struggle can I attrit and slow the americans enough to win in the end? That Panther can easily tip the game balance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hundminen Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 My guess is "B" - Germans + 25%, makes it most fair. With no handicap, I have beaten AI easily as Americans every time, but only managed draw as Germans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyamoto Musashi Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 Well, it depends on who you're playing. Against the AI with the Axis up 150%, I got a total Allied victory on VoT. One of my 105 Sherms got the 2 Panthers and the artillery took care of most of the 8 pillboxes. I did end up losing one 75 Sherman to a schreck, but I managed to force a German surrender on turn 33. I tend to think that the basic, unweighted scenario tilts at least a little in the Allies' favor. Now against a human opponent, all bets are off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hundminen Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 By the way: Fatherof6: Congratulations on your two more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 Well, considering the limited numer of games of VoT (1 each as Axis and Allies against AI) that I've played, I think the Germans may need maybe 1 more platoon or troops, but anything else might tip the scales to far. As the Allies, I pretty much rolled over the Germans, even after losing my starting tanks. As the Axis, the allies managed to get into town for some house to house combat, but the Panther and extra troops turned the tide. Considering the AI is probably better on defense than on the attack, I would say two humans of the same skill would need the Germans getting a slight advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Teg Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 Hi, After playing the German side a great number of times, I've found some very strong setups. Also, the German reinforcements seem relatively strong. I would chose A. However, I think it depends on your opponents setup confidence and, perhaps, his overall experience, with the effectiveness of the various German units. Congratulations on the new family members! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 Sides are pretty even, the games I've had ended with a fairly slim margin of victory whether US or German. Reg's Fen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 Its a luck thing... If the Sherman 105's take out the 75 Bunker, the Germans are screwed... If not, the Amis are hard pressed. My vote goes to A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hundminen Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 I found the problem playing the Germans was my bunkers (concrete too) and AT gun were easily neutralized by the heavy American arty shelling. Is there a bunker deployment that is less suseptable to shelling, yet with good LOS to advancing infantry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 A ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TZEENCH Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 Fatherof4, Long time no see need to get some pbem going-(hope i do better this time ) I think A, the germans have enough troops till the panter shows up, You just need to be more defence minded and not place stuff in the Los of the yanks. PLaying with anything over 50% is overkill. I think the germans need a truck or skf 251 to acompany the panther. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_in_texas Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 Although I was tempted to throw in the towel by turn 10 as the Germans, I decided to stick with it. I'm glad I did because, after the reinforcements arrived, I ended up with a total Axis victory by turn 33. My vote: A Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strat Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 I have played against the AI for both sides and won both games. I would say the sides are balanced. Three machine gun bunkers, an anti-tank bunker, a Panther plus another german platoon around turn 15 and the mine fields make the game well balanced. Playing the german side, I have used the mine fields and barbed wire to get the allied platoons to manuever into an ambush situation and eliminated two platoons with one german platoon and an HMG unit. The anti-tank bunker, if placed well can take out the two shermans at the beginning with panzerschrecks(sp?), taking out some others until reenforcements arrive. I have noticed the AI doesn't move the troops around the field fast. It does a more cautious approach until it eliminates any armored threat. Strat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRKing Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 The panther you receive with your reinforcements evens out the mission. The trick is holding the Americans long enough and in a position far enough away from your reinforcement area. My final vote would have to be A. This mission is tough for the Germans but fair once your reinforcements arrive. BTW I am new to the forum and I'd just like to say hello to everyone. I'm hooked like the rest of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwin Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 Welcome aboard HR, now if we could just get Noshoes and Quad into it, I think Twitch has been infected a bit as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 Dont know about you guys, but I dont have all that much trouble with this scenario as Germans against the computer anymore. Just take your German squads up the far left of the map with some schreks and clear the tree line with the infantry squads while your schreks get into position to take some pot shots at the reinforcements(Shermans) as they come on board. Seems the AI is slow to mount the attack, and if the arty cant see ya it cant kill ya. Ray ------------------ When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one." MantaRays 5 Pages Hardcore Gamers Daily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gyrene251 Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 I'd say A for the moment. I am currently playing the scenario and I must say as the Americans I am not doing well despite knocking out a few pillboxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mirage2k Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 A. Definitely A. A LOT can happen to shift the balance either way. The Americans have a huge artillery advantage, but that doesn't necessarily mean success. I've watched German bunkers survive truly massive shelling with no damage, and a good set-up can make it very difficult for the U.S. infantry to take the town or surrounding hills. If the Americans lose both 105 Shermans early in the game, the Panther can really wreak havoc with the 75 Shermans that arrive as reinforcements. -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 B. The initial balance is great for a blind scenario. But for two human opponents who both have prior experience with the scenario, looking for a chess match on known terrain, the German has some serious constraints. His heaviest assets are singular, and Ami foreknowledge of approximately when and exactly where the you-know-what shows up would be devastating. Definitely B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 I would choose "A". Regarding defending troops, they have something of an advantage anyway, so I don't see why they necessarily need anything beyond the default reinforcements. The scen is winnable from the German side with what it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatherof6 Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 Thanks for the advice so far guys. Just to clear any confusion for future posters, maybe I should have said: Given what you now know, would you be happy playing a PBEM game as the Germans in VoT without any advantage? After thinking about it some more, I wouldn't be. But maybe you are better at defending than I am. While the AI is good, maybe the best yet in wargaming, it's no slam on BTS to say that a good human will usually beat it. I hope Charles/Steve won't be offended when I use the following analogy. To me, CM's AI is like a 7-11. Not a lot of variety, but always there for you at 3:00 a.m. Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted May 21, 2000 Share Posted May 21, 2000 Well, I just played VoT as the Germans with no advantage and again, the AI handed me my balls on a hub cap that even Tonya Harding wouldn't use. So definitely, the Germans need a bit of advantage in this one. Just too much damn Allied artillery!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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