guachi Posted February 3, 2000 Share Posted February 3, 2000 I saw something almost unreal unfold in my latest turn in a PBEM game. An MG42 of mine in Riesberg unloaded an amazing 34 units of ammo in one turn. Some Americans were close assaulting him and a few other units in one of the stone buildings. He unleashed an astounding 32 units of ammo in 40 seconds at ranges of under 10 meters at the Americans. By my count I took two casualties and inflicted nine. I can only imagine what the top floor of the building must look like. Hundreds and hundreds of shell casings, bits of stone and plaster, shattered glass, and, best of all, dead and injured Americans. How many bullets would 34 ammo units from an MG42 actually be? Jason ------------------ Board member since 9/99 with 340 posts. I'm a member, dammit!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted February 3, 2000 Share Posted February 3, 2000 Guachi, your ammo drop was not solely from firing. For MG teams, casualties will decrease the ammo load. That's because the team members share the ammo carrying duties, and if a man is hit and incapacitated, his ammo goes with him. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted February 3, 2000 Author Share Posted February 3, 2000 I should have clarified. The MG42 didn't take any casualties - other Germans in the building did (a Hvy SMG squad in particular). Second, MG teams that don't move do not have their ammo levels decrease from casualties. I watched the turn several times just for amusement. It was pretty sweet listening to a continuous ripping sound from the MG42 for 40 seconds. The MG42 gets my vote for the best small arms sound. Another cool thing happened that turn. I close assaulted a Sherman with a full strength SMG platoon. Fired one Faust and destroyed the Sherman with a side turret hit. The strange this is, The squad that killed it wasn't even facing the tank! I guess Panzerfausts are omni-directional. Or maybe the soldier was too scared and fired it backwards over his shoulder. Jason ------------------ Board member since 9/99 with 340 posts. I'm a member, dammit!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted February 3, 2000 Share Posted February 3, 2000 Sounds like he's using Final Defensive Fire and Final Protective Fire? p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aaronb Posted February 3, 2000 Share Posted February 3, 2000 The cyclic rate is 1200-1400 rpm. So, in forty seconds of desperate, frantic, barrel-sagging firing, your squad churned through about 900 rounds. To put that in perspective: a pile of brass about six inches deep at the center and almost three feet in diameter. Now that I'd like to see shown in CM2 I'm sure it would have jammed in the next turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted February 3, 2000 Share Posted February 3, 2000 There *might* be a rare bug. A tester recently had something like this happen and I know I scratched my head. It would be almost impossible to unload that much ammo in such a small amount of time because of reload times. I don't know what Charles found, but I will send this one along as well. If you have a save of this please keep it and I will email you if we need to see it. Thanks, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted February 3, 2000 Author Share Posted February 3, 2000 Definitely have the save game (cuz I keep all my PBEM saves). The thing is, he didn't even need to fire that much. The poor Company HQ he was firing at somehow managed to last twenty seconds before taking even one casualty! And he was still firing away merrily at my other units. At a range of four meters I figured he would have been vaporized in under 10 seconds. By the end of the turn, though, the HQ and two other squads had a continuous chorus of 'Let's get out of here!!' They'd run down the stairs away from the MG and then right back up away from the squads on the ground floor. Back and forth until they died on the stairs. The PBEM game is actually pretty close. The lucky breaks have split about even. The will probably go down to the bitter end. Even after months of play, the CM demo still manages to pull off a few cool things now and then. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted February 3, 2000 Share Posted February 3, 2000 No need for the save game. Charles fixed it last night. Seems it wasn't a bug as such, just a bounds error. In other words, there needed to be a practical cap of how much ammo could be used. Expect to see the max to be around 10-15 units of ammo in one turn in the final. That is roughly 2-3 clips of a SMG. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 Thats What I love about these guys(BTS), Something extraordinary reported by someone(gauchi JR Memember ) and investigated and fixed. How many other companies are this responsive. (heavenly music playing ) Teutonic Jr. [This message has been edited by Teutonic (edited 02-03-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goanna Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 Guachi, any chance you could e-mail me that turn for a look? You have me pretty excited what with all the swaing of a building in half PLUS the SMG squad actually getting their fausts out of their pockets. ------------------ desert rat wannabe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 jason, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The PBEM game is actually pretty close.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Can't be our game then can it Better not try any of that funny panic firing your MG42 against me or I'll panic fire a Sherman and that's got 2MG and a 75. Don't expect any close assaults from me until I've levelled the building, anybody who close assaults those Ger SMG squads in a stone building gets what they deserve. I can tell from our game and your comments here that you've attended the Fionn 'death or glory' school PS For goodness sake stop whining about your member status if you didn't draw attention to it I am sure no-one would notice it [This message has been edited by Simon Fox (edited 02-03-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uedel Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 to aaronb. you couldnt fire 900 rounds in one long burst with MG42. Because A) Ammobelt isnt that long --> 1 AmmoBox contains 1 Belt with maximum 200 rounds this takes about 30-40 sec´s untrainned and min 10-15 sec trainned crew Your Barrel will go to hot --> You have to change it after max 200 rounds. This will take too about 10-25 sec´s and couldnt be dual to belt change. So u could maybe fire 900 rounds in theory with MG 42 but not in real. Why i know that ? Spent my Army time at German Army and they use the MG 3 what is most identycal to MG42. Only 3-4 thing´s have changed. The Barrel and the "Schulterstuetze". And about ammo i got to say. When a Crewmember get´s lost/wounded/disabled, then Ammo didnt have to be gone--> Special when they are not moving and are Stationary. Tha Ammoboxes will lay on ground and the left/survived Members of the Team can easy grab them. They are not in the mouth or Boddy of the wounded/Dead Crewmember. ------------------ Major Uedel Kommandant 111 FallschirmjaegerBtl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 The caliber changed too. It's 7,62mm for the MG3, used to be 7,92mm for the MG42. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurtz Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 But you could link ammobelts together and keep firing for as long as you wish. The 200 rnds limit between barrelchanges is to prevent unnecessary wear. So you _could_ fire some 900 rnds without releasing the triggger, but I don´t think it would be a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uedel Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 with Fireing 900 rounds u sure jam the weapon ! ------------------ Major Uedel Kommandant 111 FallschirmjaegerBtl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurtz Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 Most likely, but you can´t win a war without taking some chances. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 Simon Fox, DEATH OR GLORY !!!! I think I just surprised another couple of players with my fanatical attacks recently LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted February 4, 2000 Author Share Posted February 4, 2000 I figure I would get into the spirit of things playing Riesberg. The Germans have a chance to be fanatical so I decided to play like it. Totally gung ho. I'm playing somebody in his first PBEM as well as Simon in Riesberg as the Germans. These are the only two times I have played as the Germans PBEM. The first game is at turn 13 and is non-stop action. Against Simon, the game is at turn 18 after he went on a vacation hiatus for a month. The game against Simon is lacking a little in excitement as Simon is taking the go slow approach - which is the same way I played as the Americans in my two PBEM games so I can't complain. I got two victories out of it. The other game is really exciting. One platoon on the right supported by the 88 and mortar managed to rout an American platoon for no casualties. I'm not really sure how I did it. The units that are normally by the road ambush site I moved over to the right and caught some support units on the hill. My squad and platoon HQ dished out some damage before succumbing. The rest of the platoon was being commanded by the Company HQ which was hiding behind the first row of houses. As the Americans were moving toward the houses I charged and wiped out a squad but I couldn't get away before a Sherman took the house down (ouch!) My two VG platoons are fanatically attacking a US platoon and a Sherman on my left. I've only managed to take out one Sherman with my (now dead) 88s so Iwas left to face three with jsut infantry. The Sherman the VGs are fighting took out one 88 while firing at a nearby MG42 (arrrgh!) The VGs are game, but don't have the firepower to wipe out the Americans at close range like the SMG platoons do. The SMG platoon on my right waited until the bulk of Americans had entered town and made a mad dash at an unsupported Sherman which was shooting up a hapless Panzerschreck team. Knocking out the Sherman with a faust was worth the half dozen casualties. The Company HQ and the remants of the two squads made a mad dash back to the stone building the MG42 mentioned above was stationed in. Thankfully, the HQ and one of the squads are Vets because I only had a command delay of 5 seconds. And I needed every second as the units made it into the building just as some Americans made it in. I keep thinking that I'm doing really well, then I remember that I'm outnumbered almost two to one. Has anyone actually managed to win Riesberg in a PBEM game as the Germans? I honestly don't think it's possible. At least not after the American player knows what the Germans have. As long as the Americans have some tanks left, they can pound the Germans into oblivion. I'm surprised my VG platoons haven't been wiped off the map by the Sherman that is sitting 40 meters away. I figure that if I stay at point blank range, the Sherman is as likely to cause damage to his own troops as to mine. But, gee, I have to inflict four casualties on every Americam squad just to get his squads even strength with mine. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 Yes, I won Riesberg after losing ALL my 88s for NO US tank kills. Left me facing 4 tanks with only infantry. In the end I killed one and the US called a ceasefire with 3 tanks in perfect working order and 2.5 platoons of infantry still alive. My secret.. I counter-attacked him HARD. I swung wide with SMG teams, hit his flank, wiped out MG and mortar teams and then attacked him from in front with a platoon as my flanking platoon came up behind him. I ended up panicking him into rushing my houses in the village and catching him between three fires. Then I turned and wiped out the reinforcing US platoon for virtually no casualties. The US was still in VERY good shape but the ferocity of my attacks and the fact they were coming from his rear, left AND front totally panicked my opponent who called a ceasefire when he was still more than strong enough to win . Break their will to win and their belief that they will win and you have already won . Of course now I'm playing Bil again in the Bocage and he is doing a good impersonation of the Russians.. I've wiped out 3 companies so he simply lined up his 4th company in column formation and has charged them straight into one section of my line. I really am facing a human freight train Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aaronb Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> A) Ammobelt isnt that long --> 1 AmmoBox <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Someone else pointed out that belts can be linked. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Your Barrel will go to hot <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The first thing that happens is the lands (the raised section in the rifling) get red-hot and are shot-out. No more spin, and the bullets are just high-speed rocks. Accuracy disappears. I saw it happen on a Bren. The next thing that happens is barrel sag, usually resulting in a bullet getting stuck and either blowing the barrel right behind the stuck bullet or blowing the bolt/breach assembly (depending on robustness of design). So, barrel sag is the practical limit to continuous rounds, although other malfunctions may stop the cartridge feed mechanism. Never seen it in person. Question to Uedel or onyone who knows: 1) was the 200 round limit SOP (standard operating procedure), or the actual likely limit before the barrel sags? 2) if it is only SOP, how long can one fire an MG42 befire it just melts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 My two cents on what an MG can and can't do... This summer I watched a Vietnam Vet M60 gunner try to put 500 rounds through his M60 all at once. Gentlemen, have you ever seen 10 belts linked together? They had FOUR men holding the belts so that they wouldn't get tangled. It is a LOT of ammo. To fire 900 in one go is rulled out just because of the impractical nature of linking so much ammo togehter. The second point I would like to make is that an LMG wouldn't have more than a belt or two fed in at any one time. At most 5 belts (I think the WWII cans held 250 rounds, but I could be mistaken). And again, there is prep time needed for this. Firing that much ammo in a short time is a waste except for a human wave sort of event with a clear line of sight. The SOP for swapping barels was not a science, but an art. The gunner had to judge the rate of expendature, cooling times inbetween firing, the air temp, and probably a few other factors I am unaware of. What I mean is that in one situation it might be once ever 200 rounds, in another once every 1000. Totally depends on how and in what conditions it is being used in. As for jamming and other malfunctions, they are FAR more common than people would think. I have seen expertly cared for guns fire just fine for 50 rounds and then jam 4 rounds in a row. I also saw a lucky guy that had a .30 cal round from his Browning "cook off". I say lucky because he just caught a few pieces of brass and didn't have to do more than a couple hours tour of duty in the hospital And remember, the hotter it is outside the more likely something is going to screw up. The M60 gunner I mentioned above got about 150 rounds through, jammed, cleared, fired another 20, jammed, cleared (that one was a toughie!!), fired about 5 shots and the gun remained silent from then on because he had to let it cool down just to get the casing out. In conclusion... the Hollywood notion of an MG blazing away for minutes at a time is not reality. The cyclic rate is only relevant to what a burst yeilds, not a full minute. Environmental and training realities also kick in to limit ammo expendature. And having fired an MG42 I can say for sure that a 50 round belt goes through VERY quickly Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted February 5, 2000 Share Posted February 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The next thing that happens is barrel sag<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Didn't Madmatt have a post or two about this a while ago? DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 5, 2000 Share Posted February 5, 2000 Yes, I believe you can find it by searching under "firing blanks" and/or "little tank" (his "special" name ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Morgue Posted February 6, 2000 Share Posted February 6, 2000 Gentalmen, i'm a combat experinced machine gunner , having fired the M60 , M73 , and M2hb in combat , all three are air-cooled , like all air cooled MGs they have a safe burst limit (20 to 25 rounds for the M60 and M73, 5 to 10 rounds for the M2) as long as the gunner can control his burst within these limits , an air-cooled MG will fire all night without melting the barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_rockley Posted February 7, 2000 Share Posted February 7, 2000 Just seconding what Sgt.Morgue explained, I've fired the M60, Minimi and the Mag 58. And if these guns are looked after they'll keep up a normal rate of fire. Somebody mentioned around 25 seconds for a barrel change, realisticly 10-12 seconds anything more and you loose momentum. And Sgts get upset when you loose momentum. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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