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Confused about AI initial placement


PEB14

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Hello,

I'm making a try at a new scenario and I'm getting confused by AI side initial unit placement. Three notions do collide and I haven't got a clear picture of the whole; these notions are:

  • the "Set Up zones" that you paint on the map in the "map" menu;
  • the AI "Setup" that you also paint on map (although in the "AI" menu), one group after another;
  • the "Deploy" action in the units menu, in which yoiu are able to position the units very precisely on the 3D map.

I somebody can paint a clear picture of how these setup actions work together, that would be most helpful…

In particular, I would like to position tha AI units precisely, letting little to no freedom of action to the AI…

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If you paint a setup zone, they will set up there.


If you do not paint a setup zone, but you paint a deployment zone and start them inside it, they will set themselves up randomly in that deployment zone.

If you place them outside a deployment zone, they will set up there.

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a few additional thoughts...maybe not all applicable but I wanted to puke it out for the record

For scenarios where it is "playable in all modes", the human wants to have flexibility to position HIS troops as he desires. Allies or Axis side. Some players get all angry if you limit them too much. oh well. The 3 different color set up zones can be fun to try and allow some flexibility for some units but not have a big gun up forward too far for example. You can have discontinuous usage of the 3 colors. 2,3,4+ big reds in the back. 2,3,4+ oranges mid way. 2,3,4+ pinks up front. same for the blue side.

The AI does what it is told. the little yellow dots and you face the unit with the green dot. 32 groups now I think and 5 AI plans. LOTS OF DOTS.

in the editor make sure all the stuff is in the proper colored set up zone(s) that match to the yellow set up dot of the AI plan for that group...OR IT GLITCHES.

I think I rattled that off correctly.  

FUN STUFF!

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26 minutes ago, PEB14 said:
  • the "Set Up zones" that you paint on the map in the "map" menu;

This is for the player to setup their forces. The designer has to use the unit deployment to place the scenario units in the setup zones so the player can move them where they want or the designer can place some or all of the units outside the setup zone in which case the player cannot move them.

Note: units always get a deployment location this default location is terrible and will not be restricted to the painted deployment zones- make sure you place all units yourself as the designer. I recommend you pick a decent first draft of an attack formation or defensive setup. Alternatively you could organize them so platoons, companies and battalions are positioned in an organized way.

 

26 minutes ago, PEB14 said:
  • the AI "Setup" that you also paint on map (although in the "AI" menu), one group after another;

This allows AI plan specific placement of various groups. If you do not provide a setup area for a group in an AI plan they will start where they are set in the unit deployment.

Note: the final setup for AI units into their setup zones is not done right away when you are running in scenario design mode. At first all units are placed in the locations they had during deployment and when the clock actually starts the snap to the locations that match the chosen AI plan's setup zones.

 

26 minutes ago, PEB14 said:
  • the "Deploy" action in the units menu, in which yoiu are able to position the units very precisely on the 3D map.

This is for the scenario designer to setup default locations for units. They can use that position for all their AI plans or they can create plan specific setup areas. The deploy action allows you to very specifically setup units and give them face orders. The painted AI plan setup areas allow the AI to pick a place within the painted area.

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Thanks gentlemen for these detailed answers.

So If I understand correctly, the better one to get my AI units set up like I want them to is NOT to use AI "Setup"? I tried the latter option at first and the result was quite terrible.

And if I catched everybody's answers correctly, the "Set Up zones" from the map are only useful for human players, the AI makes no use of it. Correct?

Edited by PEB14
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Not quite.

AI Setup zones are useful because you can vary them with AI plans.

If you always want them to set up in a specific spot, you're probably best not using the "Setup" part of the unit AI plan, or perhaps setting them up on specific, dotted areas.

If you paint a deployment zone, and do not set a setup zone in the AI plan, and you setup the AI unit inside that deployment zone, they'll be placed at random inside that zone. This is rarely a good option, but it might be useful for something.

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26 minutes ago, domfluff said:

Not quite.

AI Setup zones are useful because you can vary them with AI plans.

If you always want them to set up in a specific spot, you're probably best not using the "Setup" part of the unit AI plan, or perhaps setting them up on specific, dotted areas.

If you paint a deployment zone, and do not set a setup zone in the AI plan, and you setup the AI unit inside that deployment zone, they'll be placed at random inside that zone. This is rarely a good option, but it might be useful for something.

OK.

But inside a setup zone AI units are also placed randomly inside that area, correct?

To avoid too much randomness I shall divide my forces in small AI groups and paint small setup zones, correct?

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1 hour ago, domfluff said:

If you paint a deployment zone, and do not set a setup zone in the AI plan, and you setup the AI unit inside that deployment zone, they'll be placed at random inside that zone. This is rarely a good option, but it might be useful for something.

?? Am I missing something? I don't think it works that way. Unless I am miss-under standing what you are saying.

Consider setting up a defensive side and I want both human and computers to play that side:

  • I paint a nice big setup zone for the player to use.
  • I deploy the defensive troops in a way that makes sense.
  • I have only one AI plan and no setup orders.

When the player plays that side they see my chosen deployment and they can tweak it as they like inside the nice big setup zone.

When the player faces the AI the AI controlled units start out where I set them up during deployment because there is no setup orders for the AI plan.

No randomness involved.

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FOR YOUR FIRST SCENARIO I ADVISE TO KEEP IT SIMPLE. :D

I best enjoy writing a scenario that is only playable as human on one side because it is easier and quicker to write and you can focus your efforts for the other side AI pan.

HUMAN PLAYER SIDE: write briefing, make TACMAP. Use all 3 colors for set up zones for something cool to control the human.

AI side: no briefing required. no tacmap required. AI Plan 1 gets tested and then maybe AI Plan 2 and 3 are just some variations on what happens.

The various points are always a hassle for me to make end perfect.  

 

 

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I could write a very long post about this topic but I'll keep it simple.

You PAINT up to three set-up zones for both players - Blue 1, 2 and 3 and Red 1, 2 (pink) and 3 (orange) and any units that are placed in these zones in the editor by the designer can be re-positioned by the player (and the AI through painting yellow zones) anywhere in the same set-up zone. Units not placed in a set-up zone are fixed in place and can't be re-positioned by either side. A lot of the time, players just paint one large Blue-1 or Red-1 set up zone and don't bother with the others. The extra allows the designer to exert a much more sophisticated level of control over AI placement in plans.

You can overlap these zones and units placed in such a mixed zone can be placed in both. I don't do this intentionally as I have my own system. ;)

The player can position the AI's units very precisely in the editor and, as long as you don't paint any yellow set up positions for the group in order 1 in a plan, they will stay there at set-up if that plan is selected. Or you can paint certain sections of the set-up zone with yellow boxes and decide if they'll set up on Lower Floors, Upper Floors, Rooftops or a mix if they are in buildings.

There are five possible AI Plans so if if you're not too particular, you can paint zones for the AI groups and it will place units from that group randomly in that yellow set-up zone in that plan. If you're only planning to use one plan, set the units up by yourself. 

Edited by Paper Tiger
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Thank you gentlemen. That's perfectly clear, no more question on the topic! PaperTiger and IanL's advices are clear: one AI plan means no messing up with painting AI set-up zones. Painting AI set-up zones only makes sense for several AI plans, at the cost of randomness.

@kohlenklau Don't worry, I'll make it simple. But in my first running test the AI messed up with my initial placement so I tried to figure why. Now I do!

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 4/28/2023 at 10:27 AM, PEB14 said:

Painting AI set-up zones only makes sense for several AI plans, at the cost of randomness.

No, I think that AI setup zones always make sense. And the randomness is not a cost, but a big benefit, because it allows enemy units to set up in a random location - this is great for replayability.

Say you have an AT gun and you paint its setup zone. You don't need to paint the zone as one big box - you can paint many individual squares and when the battle begins, the gun will be placed in just one of those locations, keeping the player guessing.

And then you can combine with different AI plans so that in Plan 1, the Germans defend the village with the majority of their forces, but their units are semi-randomly positioned there, and in Plan 2, they mostly defend the river crossing, but again you don't know where they are exactly, and so on.

I wish more scenario designers would use these tricks.

The only downside is that first of all, it's a lot of work, and secondly, by painting setup zones you lose the ability to place a unit very exactly on the map. Sometimes, this means no line of fire.

Edited by Bulletpoint
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