A stupid question about campaigns

[PEB14]

One more stupid questions, for which I c annot find any answer in the manual…

If I understand correctly, campaigns are just won or lost. There is nothing like a Minor or a Major campaign victory. Either you win or you lose. Am I correct?

[womble]

55 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

One more stupid questions, for which I c annot find any answer in the manual…

If I understand correctly, campaigns are just won or lost. There is nothing like a Minor or a Major campaign victory. Either you win or you lose. Am I correct?

Some campaigns will have "different wins" and "different losses", depending on which missions you succeed at, I believe.

 

[kohlenklau]

I recall the campaign author can actually give the wording of the 2 options. Very near the beginning of the file...I bolded it below.

Here is the campaign script for my amateur first campaign from 2015. CMFI Wacht Am Rapido. I used CMFI to be a Battle of the Bulge but placed in Italy!

/* Campaign Header 14.3.15*/
[PLAYER FORCE] red // options are: blue/red
[HUMAN OPPONENT ALLOWED] no // no/yes
[BLUE VICTORY TEXT] You won!
[BLUE DEFEAT TEXT] You lost!
[RED VICTORY TEXT] You are victorious! Your successful battlefield leadership has significantly disrupted the allies plans.
[RED DEFEAT TEXT] You have been defeated! The efforts of your men have been in vain. The cross-channel invasion will take place.
/*Battle #1*/
[BATTLE NAME] Battle 1// note, do not include “.btt”, just the file name
[WIN THRESHOLD] tactical victory //
[NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] Battle 2A
[NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] Battle 2B// a blank signals an end of the campaign
[BLUE REFIT %] 100 //always express this a number between 0 and 100
[BLUE REPAIR VEHICLE %] 10
[BLUE RESUPPLY %] 100
[BLUE REST %] 10
[RED REFIT %] 50
[RED REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[RED RESUPPLY %] 100
[RED REST %] 10
/*Battle #2A*/
[BATTLE NAME] Battle 2A// note, do not include “.btt”, just the file name
[WIN THRESHOLD] tactical victory //
[NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] Battle 3
[NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] // a blank signals an end of the campaign
[BLUE REFIT %] 100 //always express this a number between 0 and 100
[BLUE REPAIR VEHICLE %] 10
[BLUE RESUPPLY %] 100
[BLUE REST %] 10
[RED REFIT %] 50
[RED REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[RED RESUPPLY %] 100
[RED REST %] 10
/*Battle #2B*/
[BATTLE NAME] Battle 2B// note, do not include “.btt”, just the file name
[WIN THRESHOLD] tactical victory //
[NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] Battle 3
[NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] // a blank signals an end of the campaign
[BLUE REFIT %] 100 //always express this a number between 0 and 100
[BLUE REPAIR VEHICLE %] 10
[BLUE RESUPPLY %] 100
[BLUE REST %] 10
[RED REFIT %] 50
[RED REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[RED RESUPPLY %] 100
[RED REST %] 10
/*Battle #3*/
[BATTLE NAME] Battle 3// note, do not include “.btt”, just the file name
[WIN THRESHOLD] tactical victory //
[NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] Battle 4A
[NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] Battle 4B// a blank signals an end of the campaign
[BLUE REFIT %] 100 //always express this a number between 0 and 100
[BLUE REPAIR VEHICLE %] 10
[BLUE RESUPPLY %] 100
[BLUE REST %] 10
[RED REFIT %] 50
[RED REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[RED RESUPPLY %] 100
[RED REST %] 10
/*Battle #4A*/
[BATTLE NAME] Battle 4A// note, do not include “.btt”, just the file name
[WIN THRESHOLD] tactical victory //
[NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] Battle 5
[NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] // a blank signals an end of the campaign
[BLUE REFIT %] 100 //always express this a number between 0 and 100
[BLUE REPAIR VEHICLE %] 10
[BLUE RESUPPLY %] 100
[BLUE REST %] 10
[RED REFIT %] 50
[RED REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[RED RESUPPLY %] 100
[RED REST %] 10
/*Battle #4B*/
[BATTLE NAME] Battle 4B// note, do not include “.btt”, just the file name
[WIN THRESHOLD] tactical victory //
[NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] Battle 5
[NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] // a blank signals an end of the campaign
[BLUE REFIT %] 100 //always express this a number between 0 and 100
[BLUE REPAIR VEHICLE %] 10
[BLUE RESUPPLY %] 100
[BLUE REST %] 10
[RED REFIT %] 50
[RED REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[RED RESUPPLY %] 100
[RED REST %] 10
/*Battle #5*/
[BATTLE NAME] Battle 5
[WIN THRESHOLD] tactical victory
[NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] Battle 6A
[NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] Battle 6B
[BLUE REFIT %] 100
[BLUE REPAIR VEHICLE %] 100
[BLUE RESUPPLY %] 10
[BLUE REST %] 10
[RED REFIT %] 10
[RED REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[RED RESUPPLY %] 10
[RED REST %] 10
/*Battle #6A*/
[BATTLE NAME] Battle 6A
[WIN THRESHOLD] tactical victory
[NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] Battle 7
[NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] // end campaign
[BLUE REFIT %] 10
[BLUE REPAIR VEHICLE %] 10
[BLUE RESUPPLY %] 10
[BLUE REST %] 10
[RED REFIT %] 10
[RED REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[RED RESUPPLY %] 10
[RED REST %] 10
/*Battle #6B*/
[BATTLE NAME] Battle 6B
[WIN THRESHOLD] tactical victory
[NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] Battle 7
[NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] // end campaign
[BLUE REFIT %] 10
[BLUE REPAIR VEHICLE %] 10
[BLUE RESUPPLY %] 10
[BLUE REST %] 10
[RED REFIT %] 10
[RED REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[RED RESUPPLY %] 10
[RED REST %] 10
/*Battle #7*/
[BATTLE NAME] Battle 7
[WIN THRESHOLD] tactical victory
[NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] Battle 8A//
[NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] Battle 8B//
[BLUE REFIT %] 10
[BLUE REPAIR VEHICLE %] 10
[BLUE RESUPPLY %] 10
[BLUE REST %] 10
[RED REFIT %] 10
[RED REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[RED RESUPPLY %] 10
[RED REST %] 10
/*Battle #8A*/
[BATTLE NAME] Battle 8A
[WIN THRESHOLD] tactical victory
[NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] Battle 9
[NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] // end campaign
[BLUE REFIT %] 10
[BLUE REPAIR VEHICLE %] 10
[BLUE RESUPPLY %] 10
[BLUE REST %] 10
[RED REFIT %] 10
[RED REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[RED RESUPPLY %] 10
[RED REST %] 10
/*Battle #8B*/
[BATTLE NAME] Battle 8B
[WIN THRESHOLD] tactical victory
[NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] Battle 9
[NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] // end campaign
[BLUE REFIT %] 10
[BLUE REPAIR VEHICLE %] 10
[BLUE RESUPPLY %] 10
[BLUE REST %] 10
[RED REFIT %] 10
[RED REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[RED RESUPPLY %] 10
[RED REST %] 10
/*Battle #9*/
[BATTLE NAME] Battle 9
[WIN THRESHOLD] tactical victory
[NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] Battle 10A//
[NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] Battle 10B//
[BLUE REFIT %] 10
[BLUE REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[BLUE RESUPPLY %] 10
[BLUE REST %] 10
[RED REFIT %] 10
[RED REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[RED RESUPPLY %] 10
/*Battle #10A*/
[BATTLE NAME] Battle 10A
[WIN THRESHOLD] tactical victory
[NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] //end campaign
[NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] // end campaign
[BLUE REFIT %] 10
[BLUE REPAIR VEHICLE %] 10
[BLUE RESUPPLY %] 10
[BLUE REST %] 10
[RED REFIT %] 10
[RED REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[RED RESUPPLY %] 10
[RED REST %] 10
/*Battle #10B*/
[BATTLE NAME] Battle 10B
[WIN THRESHOLD] tactical victory
[NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] //end campaign
[NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] // end campaign
[BLUE REFIT %] 10
[BLUE REPAIR VEHICLE %] 10
[BLUE RESUPPLY %] 10
[BLUE REST %] 10
[RED REFIT %] 10
[RED REPAIR VEHICLE %] 0
[RED RESUPPLY %] 10
[RED REST %] 10
 

Edited April 26, 2023 by kohlenklau

[WimO]

PEB14: Your assumption is correct. With campaigns it is just win or lose. Degrees of winning or losing only occur in the campaigns individual scenarios. As K's note above shows, the campaign.txt file requires a single victory and single loss text.

Even the degrees of winning and losing individual scenarios don't matter much because the campaign author sets a level of victory to continue to the next scenario. For example, let's say that in one of my campaign scenarios I set the 'to continue' level at Tactical Victory, it would mean that if the player achieved a draw, minor or major victory, the player still 'loses' because they cannot progress through the campaign (or perhaps kicked into another branch). To me, this makes perfect sense relative to real life. Sometimes a draw is adequate (for example holding ground) and somtimes you need a much stronger victory, for example when taking ground - did you do well enough to be able to hold it afterwards?

[Ithikial_AU]

3 hours ago, PEB14 said:

One more stupid questions, for which I c annot find any answer in the manual…

If I understand correctly, campaigns are just won or lost. There is nothing like a Minor or a Major campaign victory. Either you win or you lose. Am I correct?

   

Full write up on the step by step process of a campaign in CM2 era games. The individual scenarios can only have a binary win/lose outcome but the final campaign outcome can be either left to the game to work out based on victory point allocations across the campaign (very tough to nail down as a designer for a desired outcome), or via a preset value in the campaign script by the designer.

[WimO]

CORRECTION! CORRECTION!

I earlier stated that campaigns are either won or lost without victory grades. I was wrong. Just this moment I completed a play test of my shorter, 5 scenario version of my Mission Boston Objective La Fiere campaign. I had set it up so that if you lost any one of the five historically critical scenarios the campaign would end. I got only as far as the very hard fought and exciting end of the fourth scenario in which I got a draw which was not good enough. So I got booted without completing the campaign as expected. But then SURPRISE! SURPRISE! SURPRISE! (to quote Gomer Pyle USMC). It awarded me a WIN and not just a win but a graded win - a Tactical Victory!  No way?!  What the FUBAR?  It was supposed to be a loss. I have no idea how that happened. No idea how to fix it. Months and months of full time work and bug swatting agony and now this!

I wonder if I progressively increase the VP values from one scenario to the next if that would solve the problem. .. modify ... recompile ... retest ... yawn.

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by WimO

[kevinkin]

I think your answer might lie on page 116 of the engine 4.0 manual. If so, the script can always be changed and the campaign re-compiled. I feel your pain. Campaigns take a lot of time and effort even for a full team of players. To make one yourself is pretty damn hard. I am sure a few others will come to the rescue better than I did. I bet there is a solution. 

"Normally, to signal the end of a campaign, the [NEXT BATTLE IF WIN] and/or the [NEXT BATTLE IF LOSE] fields are left empty. However, any of the following list of keywords can optionally be entered there instead, signaling both the end of the campaign and either a minimum required overall campaign victory (if following [NEXT BATTLE IF WIN]) or a maximum allowed victory (if following [NEXTBATTLEIF LOSE]). This is most useful for “early ends” to campaigns where you want the final score to reflect the fact the early end of the campaign more than the success or failure of each battle along the way. Note that each keyword must start with an underscore.
_total defeat
_major defeat
_tactical defeat
_minor defeat
_draw
_minor victory
_tactical victory
_major victory
_total victory"

[PEB14]

Thank you for these answers.

I just finished the "Devil's Descent" campaign a few days ago and, to be honest, I was a little disappointed by the end of the campaign: a rough, basic screen with a few lines of text. I was waiting for something more… consistent, especially after battling during hours: something like a pretty screen with a nice picture, perhaps a campaign summary showing the scores in the various individual battles, and some final designer's notes not unlike the end titles of a movie… Anyway.

I find the binary outcome of the campaigns also a little bit disturbing. Nothing is never fully black or fully white, especially in war… So I would have appreciated more nuance in the campaign outcomes, exactly the way it is for the individual battles outcomes. While even more complex to manage, it would made for interesting branches: depending on some critical battles outcome, the player would branch from a "Total Victory" main branch to branches leading to pooorer results if he loses. Anyway…

@Ithikial_AU thank you for the link, sounds very useful. In the first page of the topic, you state that it was to be released as a guide to be added to latest releases of the CM games, the way it was for Jon Sowden's "A Scen Design AAR PDF Book". If I'm not mistaken it never actually made it? I'll read through it carefully though.

[Ithikial_AU]

1 minute ago, PEB14 said:

@Ithikial_AU thank you for the link, sounds very useful. In the first page of the topic, you state that it was to be released as a guide to be added to latest releases of the CM games, the way it was for Jon Sowden's "A Scen Design AAR PDF Book". If I'm not mistaken it never actually made it? I'll read through it carefully though.

That could be on me as other projects cropped up but there definitely is a MS Word copy floating around somewhere. Whether it makes the public patches or not is not up to me.

[PEB14]

12 minutes ago, Ithikial_AU said:

That could be on me as other projects cropped up but there definitely is a MS Word copy floating around somewhere. Whether it makes the public patches or not is not up to me.

Now there is also a MS copy on my own hard drive either!

Thanks.

[PEB14]

I think I need help once again…

I'm trying a very small campaign featuring a depleted battalion (60% headcount) on one side.

As I'm a good and disciplined pupil, I faithfully follow @Ithikial_AU's advices regarding core units file creation:

Quote

Also don’t forget to select the options at the bottom of the force selection screen ensuring the experience levels and appearance is correct for all units, keeping in mind these selections will run across the campaign. It’s usually safer to keep supply levels and headcounts at 100% in the core unit file and adjust the first mission as required.

So in the core file I set my battalion's headcount at 100% and in the first scenario, the headcount of the core units involved is set at 60%. Same thing for the core units which appear only in the second scenario.

When I load the individual scenarios, headcount is indeed set at 60%, my units are depleted as intended. Then I create my campaign file and when I test the first scenario: headcount is at 100% !!!! Second scenario: headcount at 100% also…

I've checked: the "blue refit" parameter is set at 0% (which shouldn't have any impact anyway as all core sub-units in scenario 1 are not featured in scenario 2 and the other way round).

What did I miss?

Which lead me to the next question: scenario 3 will feature all sub-units from both scenarios 1 and 2, without refit. In order to keep my units depleted and keep track of the losses from scenarios 1 and 2, what headcount parameter should I set in the units menu? 60% or 100%?

[PEB14]

Hmmm… Just came across an old post:

On 2/25/2020 at 1:53 AM, Mudhugger said:

 I have been testing campaign scripts in CMRT and these are my thoughts:

1. (...)
2. (...)
3. (...)
4. (...)
5. (...)
6. (...)
7. (...)
8. (...)
9. Secondly, I found out you can not use the reduced headcount feature in the core force. It just loads the entire force no matter what. I have been looking for a way to reduce a battalion in a campaign without actually playing them through a battle. Any suggestions?

Apparently I'm not the only one who faced the issue of NOT being able to use the reduced headcount feature in the core force. That's REALLY weird. With all these German campaign on the Eastern Front around… I mean, no German unit had the nominal headcount from 1944 onwards (and even before!), so how can one build a realistic campaign if one has to use the nominal TOE headcount???

Disturbing…

[PEB14]

Even more disturbing is the fact that it DOES work for off-map artillery. I've set the headcount parameter at 70% for two batteries (75 and 105 mm howitzers) in the core force file, and I can use only 3 guns for each when I call for artillery support...

[PEB14]

One question about refit/repair/resupply (4R) parameters.

Say Company A & B are my core units.

Scenario 1 features Company A

Scenario 2 features Company B

Scenario 3 features boths companies.

 

Do 4R parameters applied at the end of scenario 1 apply to Company A only?

Do 4R parameters applied at the end of scenario 2 apply to Company B only?

Do 4R parameters apply to ALL core units each time?

[Vacillator]

On 4/26/2023 at 11:45 PM, kohlenklau said:

my amateur first campaign from 2015. CMFI Wacht Am Rapido

You're too modest Phil, playing that was what got us introduced if I recall correctly.  Having said that I never finished it, maybe one day .