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What makes Red Thunder special?


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I can't speak for others but I like it because a) it features no western forces (always have been more interested in the Ostfront) b) Soviet doctrine when it works is a thing to behold c) SMGs everywhere, close up fighting is absolutely BRUTAL d) wide open maps and plenty of large armour engagements.

There's also a lot of user-made content and even some campaigns by the fine folks on this forum, along with mods, that replicate fighting at Kursk and Stalingrad (within limits of what's available).

Not sure I would call it the best CM game, it's my favourite because of the factors mentioned above but every game brings something to the table.

MMM

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Well for me it is the completely different line up the soviets have. Yeah the western allies have lots of different stuff too but all in all most of those are derived from the general sherman model if you concern only tanks.

 

The soviets have light SPG, medium, heavy SPG - and also light, medium and even heavy battletanks. Some of these can even rival the german heavies not just in armor but firepower too.

Even the T34/85 can be a sturdy one if hit from odd angles. And even if penetrated those soviet machines seem to be a little bit more survivable than any other. And due to their large he charge in most of their ap rounds, the enemies armor is pretty much done for after one solid penetration.

 

Another point are the small arms, especially soviet machine guns like the PPsH41. If you know that some of these MPi squads are lingering in a forest you might want to avoid the forest with the germans entirely...those are killers in close combat.

Then there are the anti tank rifles: Despite that they are far less effective than  a bazooka or Panzerschreck in their anti tank capability,  I always liked those as sneaky halfrack and scoutcar killers.

And as mentioned the maps are often far bigger so you can have some wider tank battles than in the other installments.

 

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a lot of toys, a lot of formations, a lot of premium quality maps (Dont forget about the 5 map orsha series or Berlin 1945), a lot of decently fleshed out factions (Though not too far off from the originals), game runs fast, 75-80% of the wehrmacht fought and died on this front, game can simulate 1943 easily and most 1942 with a couple mods. 

It's worth it for the maps alone which port to cmcw, cmbs easily and maybe cmbn+fb. 

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As Germans with armor, you are sometimes the underdog. Mark IV tanks vs T34/85s the Soviet Tank has a superior gun and armor IMHO. You need to put your thinking cap on, and you have beautiful maps. A lot of campaigns are not for beginners.

Edited by chuckdyke
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I would say if taken together with the expansion it probably is the best WW2 CM, simply because it has a ton of fairly unique content and is most "up to date". That said, how much you enjoy a CM title boils down a lot to your interest in that particular scenario. If you don't care much about the eastern front at all, you may as well get a different one that interests you more. They are not massively different and the quality between the titles is fairly steady.

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I think Red Thunder is the best WW2 module.

Both factions play wildly different.

Artillery: Soviets have long call in times and few observers so they focus on pre planned bombardments. This necessitates carefully orchestrated maneuvers. Germans have radios everywhere and focus on observed fires.

Tanks: Soviets have good firepower and armor but bad optics. Focus on massed maneuver to get in close. Germans focus on good optics to snipe tanks from a distance.

Infantry: Soviets have either expendable rifle infantry or smaller groups of smg teams that are peerless in close quarters. Germans are focused around the MG42 so they excel in longer ranged engagements.

I think this makes for more fun than US vs German who both play pretty similar.

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On 3/21/2023 at 3:39 PM, Aragorn2002 said:

Killing Russians. A must for a wargame.

Unfortunately, the timeframe being the latter stages of WW2, a lot of Ukrainians are being "killed" too." And I bet a lot were fighting against their will. 

According to researchers, during 1943-1945 about 4.5 million Ukrainians became Red Army soldiers. After June 1944, almost 40% of the Soviet Red Army consisted of Ukrainians. The losses of the Ukrainian people during World War Two account for 19-35% of the total losses of the USSR.

- Wikipedia

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5 hours ago, kevinkin said:

Unfortunately, the timeframe being the latter stages of WW2, a lot of Ukrainians are being "killed" too." And I bet a lot were fighting against their will. 

According to researchers, during 1943-1945 about 4.5 million Ukrainians became Red Army soldiers. After June 1944, almost 40% of the Soviet Red Army consisted of Ukrainians. The losses of the Ukrainian people during World War Two account for 19-35% of the total losses of the USSR.

- Wikipedia

Absolutely. Holodomor first and then you have to fight for  the bastards. 

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12 hours ago, ThathumanHayden said:

I mean, they were fighting Nazi Germany. Even if ignorant of Hitler's ideology before the war, after a few years of occupation I imagine everyone would have a firm understanding of their vested interest for fighting.

To many Ukrainians it probably meant something like fighting Charybdis at the side of Scylla ...

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20 hours ago, ThathumanHayden said:

I mean, they were fighting Nazi Germany. Even if ignorant of Hitler's ideology before the war, after a few years of occupation I imagine everyone would have a firm understanding of their vested interest for fighting.

Perhaps but initially the Ukrainians in particular the Cossacks fought against the USSR in support of the Germans as well. There were lots of Hiwis. Ukrainians were supportive of both sides during this. During the Normandy invasion Hiwis made up 1 of 9 regular battalions in infantry divisions, the rest being Germans 

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A good number of Ukrainians did fight for the Germans at the start of the war. And many Ukrainians were in the Ost-Battalions at Normandy (Although their alternative was likely starving to death in pow camps, as over 1/2 of Soviet pows died in German captivity). However, and contrary to modern Russian propaganda, by the late stages of the war the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians fighting fought for the Red Army. Ukraine was disproportionally affected by the general plan for the east, so a lot of Ukrainians chose the Soviets as the lesser of two evils. Ukrainians were instrumental in defeating the Nazis. If I remember correctly, the soldier planting the flag above the Reichstag in that famous photo had Ukrainian descendants but was born in Kazakhstan. The Ukrainians sacrificed a lot because they knew they would be wiped out if the Germans won. They acted heroically, and I would say their efforts greatly, or even decisively, helped in defeating the Nazis.

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On 3/21/2023 at 3:11 PM, Artkin said:

a lot of toys, a lot of formations, a lot of premium quality maps (Dont forget about the 5 map orsha series or Berlin 1945), a lot of decently fleshed out factions (Though not too far off from the originals), game runs fast, 75-80% of the wehrmacht fought and died on this front, game can simulate 1943 easily and most 1942 with a couple mods. 

It's worth it for the maps alone which port to cmcw, cmbs easily and maybe cmbn+fb. 

This! I too find the ability to port the maps and use the modern-ish (re: CMCW - although look at what the Russians are allegedly rolling out now...) and modern (CMBS) TO&E on said maps absolutely fascinating. The series, in general, is really hard to describe to those who haven't taken the plunge. I've tried ha!

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43 minutes ago, ham17 said:

I am new to Combat Mission, is the CM tank AI smart enough to adapt to tank warfare on open ground?

On the whole, the TacAI for any unit tends to follow your orders til danger shows, then does one of three things:

  • ignores the danger and continues your orders
  • engages the danger in order to eliminate it
  • retreats (perhaps popping smoke if available).

Which it chooses depends on the unit's morale state and inherent soft factors, combined with the nature and proximity of the threat.

Given that the AI only has to survive on its own for a minute, maximum, in turn-based play, this is usually sufficient for a plausible reaction. I'd counsel against leaving any unit in any situation entirely down to its TacAI for much longer, once contact has been made with enemy elements.

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52 minutes ago, ham17 said:

I am new to Combat Mission, is the CM tank AI smart enough to adapt to tank warfare on open ground?

As a rule of the thumb a tank will engage enemy contacts automatically. It can engage infantry and ignore enemy armor which can be the immediate threat. Best way to find it out is by playing the game. Armor needs friendly infantry nearby. A M4Sherman could engage a King Tiger Tank at a mile distance. Tactically it doesn't make always the best decision. The TacAI is the player's AI. The AI is your digital opponent. They make at times infuriating decisions.

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20 hours ago, ham17 said:

I am new to Combat Mission, is the CM tank AI smart enough to adapt to tank warfare on open ground?
Also, I dare you to tell me if there are any flaws or things that need to be improved in Red Thunder.

Well combat mission has a Tac ai for each unit that can come into play when it is threatened by any means. 

That can be by the mere presence of an enemy or by incoming fire. 

So it does nothing really "tactical" in a military sense more like an action of self preservation. (fleeing, ignore any orders, pop smoke, cower, surrender, fast depleting the MG Rambo style) 

 

The enemy ai, if you play singleplayer, is non existant I dare to say. At least it isn't implemented like in other strategic games. 

The scenario designer implements certain plans for the computer which it follows strictly (until bad things happen). Those plans can be more than just one for each mission and they can have so called trigger points on which the computer can react to a certain action of the Player. For example if the player has reached "point A" the CPU will send it's tanks to "point A" to counterattack. 

In short this means it can either be planned poorly or very good and so the "ai" might be very challenging or not. 

 

And there are lot of things that come to mind when you talk about flaws or improvements in combat mission. 

You better read about those in these forums here. There are a lot of topics that focus on these specifically. 

But I would say no Cmx2 installment has a game breaking flaw and for me it is still the best game series in the genre despite it's age. 

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 3/22/2023 at 5:29 PM, kevinkin said:

Unfortunately, the timeframe being the latter stages of WW2, a lot of Ukrainians are being "killed" too." And I bet a lot were fighting against their will. 

According to researchers, during 1943-1945 about 4.5 million Ukrainians became Red Army soldiers. After June 1944, almost 40% of the Soviet Red Army consisted of Ukrainians. The losses of the Ukrainian people during World War Two account for 19-35% of the total losses of the USSR.

- Wikipedia

I do wonder: How many of these 4.5 million Ukrainians were already trained reservists? I'm not sure how fast Ukraine was dominated during Barbarossa (I'm buying Stahel's books eventually) but considering that Ukraine was being liberated in 1943 these men were probably living in occupied territories and were unable to serve their duty to the USSR after war broke out. There were something like 14 million reservists in the republic before 1941. 

The soviets were in disarray. Stalin didn't even speak publically for something like two weeks after war broke out on June 22 1941. 

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On 3/21/2023 at 8:11 PM, Artkin said:

a lot of premium quality maps

Hello,

Can you please elaborate a bit.

Do you mean that CMRT maps graphics are superior compared to other WW2 titles?

Or are they better designed, in terms of geography and terrain?

Other?

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