What WW2 hex wargame/map is best to reuse for the current Ukraine War?

[LongLeftFlank]

(posted here, as it's a little too much diversion from the Mother of All Threads)

So as the thread says, which games / rulesets and maps would be best / easiest to modify for a playable and insightful simulation of the current war?

Discuss!  Add!  Argue!  Impugn!

Edited March 13, 2023 by LongLeftFlank

[LongLeftFlank]

Candidate 1.  Ukraine '43. 

Biggest plus: mapboard covers all of the current front (unless you buy the Von Luttwak 'right hook through Pripet' theory rofl). 
Hexes are brigade frontages.

So my question would be: at this 'grand strategy' scale, would this be a fun game? instructive? or another one of those interminable yawners, with 1 turn played per afternoon, long lines of counters stalemated along the front, and only ended once the cat gets into the gaming room.
https://bigboardgaming.com/ukraine-43-turn-5-6/

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by LongLeftFlank

[LongLeftFlank]

Candidate 2. Lost Victory: Manstein at Kharkov 1943.

Map only covers Kharkov - Stalino (Donetsk) - Zaporizhe, but hex scale is battalion (BTG!!) frontage, a scale more likely to deliver interesting and meaningful tactical combats, with the right ruleset and countermix....

Another plus, interesting terrain. A lot of the older Eastern Front monster games (e.g. Drang Nach Osten) are pretty 'blank', with only rivers and the odd strip of mountains and forests breaking up the monotonous hinterland of white hexes.

Edited March 13, 2023 by LongLeftFlank

[LongLeftFlank]

Candidate 3.  AH Kriegspiel!!!!  one of the most disrespected wargames ever.  But I've also owned it since age 11, so I have a soft spot.

...Now stay with me here; if you scale down the units from division to battalion and add the special rules for unit step reductions, replacement points and artillery units, you could get a game that reflects the actual tactical tradeoffs on smallish sectors of front tolerably well.

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/130284/advanced-kriegspiel-theory

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/129968/kriegspiel-artillery-brigade-4-2-4-red-and-black-c

Especially with the diceless 'rock-paper-scissors' card draw approach to combat resolution.

The mapboards, obviously, aren't helpful.  So we'd need to swipe some from another game.

Edited March 13, 2023 by LongLeftFlank

[LongLeftFlank]

Candidate 4.  Nick Karp's 'Vietnam: 1965-75'

I've mentioned this over on the Big War Thread, but large parts of this ruleset and countermix could be ported over to a Ukraine game.  Specifically the replacement points system for casualty reductions (including modified Draft and allied Commitment levels), ZOCs, holding/patrol/search and destroy ops, air/airmobility points, Rangers, supply rules (via railways instead of the Trail), and a number of other features of what is one of the only hex wargames I still play at this scale.  Battalion scale is exactly right.

Pursuit rules, which play such a large role in the (asymetrical) VN game would matter less here, although they could still play a role in the initial war phase.

At the risk of knocking over some hero figures, you could even apply the ARVN command loyalty and (in)effectiveness rules, initially to the Ukes and later to the Russians.

Obvs the map isn't going to be much help, although you'd want to add Cultivated hexes in place of 'Clear Terrain' to much of a modernised Ukraine map; think those lethal checkerboards of fields, tree lines and hamlets.

Edited March 13, 2023 by LongLeftFlank

[LongLeftFlank]

Other interesting maps:

'Duel for Kharkov'. Similar coverage to Lost Victory above.

Kharkov Battles: Before and After Fall Blau.  Beautiful 2021 mapmaking, and includes eastern Luhansk areas. Could be a contender for a 'Battles for Donbas' submap.

But hexes still a little large for a battalion scale wargame, which I continue to think would make the most interesting game.

Edited March 13, 2023 by LongLeftFlank

[JM Stuff]

The smile of the day @LongLeftFlank 

I I give you right to open this thread !! 

Edited March 13, 2023 by JM Stuff

[LongLeftFlank]

4 minutes ago, JM Stuff said:

The smile of the day @LongLeftFlank  no offense please I had to do it is strong than me you have hexagones you have some ww units and you have your title

...I will delete after promise you know that I am always a little crazy !!!

I I give you right to open this thread !! 

 

Ha ha, we are birds of a feather over here mate!  Here I am over here, gabbling away crazily to myself.  Thanks for the company lol.

...Here's some music to browse maps by (shh, don't tell Kraze, I don't want to hear about how Mussorgsky was some kind of rabid orcish ideologue)

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by LongLeftFlank

[JM Stuff]

Just now, LongLeftFlank said:

Ha ha, we are birds of a feather over here mate!  Here I am over here, gabbling away crazily to myself.  Thanks for the company lol.

No I give you right is interresting to see what kind of games exist in boardgames to represent the actual war !

Let a litte time that the peoples stop 2 min to play, and give you a talk about this thread, and I am sure that you will have a lot of interrested from olders wargamers or boargamers like me in the past !

 

[JM Stuff]

3 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Ha ha, we are birds of a feather over here mate!  Here I am over here, gabbling away crazily to myself.  Thanks for the company lol.

...Here's some music to browse maps by (shh, don't tell Kraze, I don't want to hear about how Mussorgsky was some kind of rabid orcish ideologue)

 

si  I like also the dramatic music and H V Karajan is also a very good music now we have a little more young like H Zimmer both are German Austria !

[LongLeftFlank]

Spring Prelude: Kharkov 1942.  Superbly done topo map here! this is probably the perfect hex scale for what I have in mind.

Very fine mapwork here, although could do without the little sunburst icons.

Edited March 13, 2023 by LongLeftFlank

[LongLeftFlank]

Here is a hex wargame dealing with modern conflict in Ukraine.

'Opaque War: Ukraine 2014.'  The map is very tidy and crisp, but also quite non-granular (may I say, it, dull) in terms of terrain, like most of the hex wargame maps I've browsed.

Your big counter stacks fight their big counter stacks, roll dice, take casualties. Not much insight into the battlefield dynamics or the value of terrain (fortified cities and factories?) here, at least not in evidence from the map.

I mean, is this going to give you any insight at all over why, or how, you'd contest Bahmut (Artemivsk)? It's just a dot in 'open terrain', with a road.

Edited March 13, 2023 by LongLeftFlank

[Erwin]

Also:  https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/9487/millennium-wars-ukraine

Millennium Wars by Joe Miranda.

[LongLeftFlank]

17 hours ago, Erwin said:

Also:  https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/9487/millennium-wars-ukraine

Millennium Wars by Joe Miranda.

Yeah, saw that but didn't investigate further because the map was so minimalist. Like something out of Pandemic.

Have you tried the game?  Boring map aside, it seems to play at divisional scale, which I maintain isn't going to tell a player much about what's distinct in this war that differentiates it from the 1941-44 battles fought across this same area (by larger forces).  Or maybe you feel differently?

[Erwin]

I used to playtest for Joe when we worked on wargames for DoD.  But, no have not tested or played this design.  

[Haiduk]

@LongLeftFlank

Try The Operational Art of War III or maybe IV (if it was issued) - hexagonal startegy. It can model any conflict  from mid of 19th century to novadays, because it has cool editor and huge database of weapon

Edited March 15, 2023 by Haiduk

[Impboi]

Barbarossa: Army Group South has a good map of all of almost all of Ukraine at a 5 mile per hex scale.

[Impboi]

Also, the US military has Zapad, which is just what you're looking for, but it's not available to the public yet

 

https://nodicenoglory.com/2021/06/23/the-operational-wargame-series-the-best-game-not-in-stores-now/

[nathangun]

Would love to get a copy of this game.

WARGAMING A LONG WAR: UKRAINE FIGHTS ON

 

"Enemy Action Kharkov" map, bottom of the map is north.

 

If you decide you which map etc.. I can build a Vassal module.

Edited March 21, 2023 by nathangun

[Zveroboy1]

I have Ukraine '43 from Simonitch. It is really good imo, I rate it highly and it is particularly interesting if you want to get some hindsight about how a Soviet offensive was conducted across a large front back then. The rules aren't that complicated, the counter density isn't very high at all: only two counters per hex. So it is fairly manageable, not a monster wargame that you'll never play. However, it is like all tabletop wargames really, not the type of game you can replay over and over constantly, not at an operational scale like this at least. Besides it is division/corps scale. I don't really see how that could even work for the present day conflict. You'd might need a battalion or brigade level game instead probably. But really how do you even plan on adapting the rules? That sounds like a colossal undertaking. Or do you just need the map alone?

Maybe a game in the Next war family would be more appropriate. It is about potential contemporary conflicts but there is no module on Ukraine, just Korea, India-Pakistan and Poland.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/191989/next-war-poland

 

[The Steppenwulf]

BCS by MMP drew my interest recently (and I'm not a massive hex and counter fan). I just heard good things about it and it's growing in popularity. Battalion level with 1km per hex scale I feel hits the spot in terms of granularity as an operational level wargame (monster stacks are not for me): https://mmpgamers.com/battalion-combat-series-c-10

 A strong core fan base might explain why there are plenty of exciting new development projects on the horizon for this game including one set in the Yom Kippur conflict: https://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/130401/2022-bcs-statish-system

But admittedly, its heart is a ww2 theatre based game series....

Perhaps slightly off topic with the following as it's strategic level with brigade level formations, but it is modern conflict, the Next War series by GMT:  

India Pakistan: https://www.gmtgames.com/p-461-next-war-india-pakistan.aspx

Korea: https://www.gmtgames.com/p-537-next-war-korea-2nd-edition.aspx

Taiwan: https://www.gmtgames.com/p-894-next-war-taiwan-2nd-edition.aspx

Vietnam: https://www.gmtgames.com/p-733-next-war-vietnam.aspx

Poland: https://www.gmtgames.com/p-846-next-war-poland-2nd-edition.aspx

I was aware of the Poland game some time ago and is somewhat relevant to Russia's present imperial aspirations, but the Iran game (for me) looked the most interesting one out of the series. 

Iran: https://www.gmtgames.com/p-1011-next-war-iran.aspx

I'd be Interested to hear if anyone else has already discovered these two series of games (perhaps are even players) and what their perspectives are on them.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by The Steppenwulf

[nathangun]

There is always GB's WITE map.

 

[Zveroboy1]

A new WIP wargame:  Miracle on the Dnipro covering the initial phase of the war and the assault on Kyiv.

The designer's diary might be of interest to some:

https://sdhist.com/first-draft-of-history-russo-ukraine-war-d-b-dockter-mark-herman/

[LongLeftFlank]

https://www.scribblemaps.com/maps/view/The-War-in-Ukraine/091194

Some very approximate frontages, based on the current situation:

1. Kharkiv-Belgorod frontier (E-W, disregard frontier north to Sumy): 230km
2. Oskil-Zherebets rivers (N-S Kupiansk-Kreminna): 180km
3. Sieversk salient: 70km
4. Bakhmut-Avdiivka: 90km 
5. Avdiivka-Vuhledar: 50km
6. Zaporizhzhne front (Vuhledar-Dnpr E-W): 180km
7. Dnpr-Kherson river (E-W, less Kinburn spit): 300km

Total active front: c.1100km