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BattlePack SPW lessons scenarios


PEB14

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Hello,

Did anybody play the SPW lessons series of scenario released in the last BattlePack?

As a newbie, they are most appealing to me, so I just tried the first one (reconnaissance) against the AI. The experiment proved highly frustrating! As the German player, I threw the towel before the end, having suffered 1:3 of casualties and conceding a Tactical Defeat. I made several mistakes, I had some bad luck at the beginning, but in the end I don't feel I learned much, which is the frustrating part of the story…

I decided to let the AI teach me a SPW lesson, thus I played the Soviet side for a second match. In a way I was again disappointed: the AI didn't fare better and once again the SS were slaughtered… As far as SPW are concerned, I was very surprised to see the AI use its 4 SPW in direct support of its infantry assault, at a firing range of less than 200 meters. It ended as anybody could predict: all the SPW gunners were killed by my troops…

Basically the scenario is a platoon sized assault on a small farm. And victory conditions are about possession (of the farm and of a bridge), which is not really a reconaissance affair… (The 10% losses threshold on the German troops is more consistent with a reconaissance affair but I strongly doubt this can be achieved).

Finally I'm not sure what the purpose of this lesson was… 😐

I'll try the two other ones though. Anyway I don't think I can play worst than what I just achieved… 😉

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This series of three missions are based on the concept lessons contained in a period German manual titled “Combat Instruction For The Panzer Grenadier” created by Major Helmut von Wehren who was the commander of a training unit and also some principles contained in the 5 August 1944 Manual ‘Panzer Grenadier: Instruction Manual for the Panzer troops: Leadership and fighting of the Panzer-Grenadier’.

Whilst direct translations of the exercises don’t translate that well to a CM environment, I used the concept to create three ‘lessons’ to help players use German armored personal carriers (or as the Germans themselves referred to them - SPW (Schützenpanzerwagen, or armored infantry vehicle) in a more doctrinally ‘correct’ manner within the limitations of the Combat Mission game engine. 

Each Lesson has a ‘Tactical Top Tips’ at the end of each briefing (under ‘notes’) which may help the player new to using SPW in Combat Mission get the most out of them..

The issues you highlighted and the top tips in the briefing are meant to help you avoid em. In truth if you were frustrated in this one the others won't be much better so might be worth applying the old Kolb learning cycle to your playthroughs.

Just in case you missed em:

Tactical Top Tips for Lesson 1

In this first lesson the player starts off with one SPW and associated gruppe (squad) on the map as the ‘point’ element, closely followed ten minutes later by the rest of the zug (platoon). Good practice would be to send at least two vehicles on such a mission. If one breaks down the other can at least take it under tow; if moving tactically the other vehicle can at least provide ‘overwatch’.

In Combat Mission SPW gunners are prime targets and if ‘opened up’ will attract fire. At anything under around 500m this incoming fire will stand a high chance of killing the gunner. Having the gunner (and hence all occupants) keep their heads down reduces the chances of them coming under fire and suffering casualties. However, having them buttoned down comes at the cost of them having reduced spotting ability.

If moving through close terrain consider dismounting the squad, split off a scout team and send them ahead to scout ahead. If ambushed, then you ‘only’ lose two riflemen. However, the ‘scout team’ lack binoculars. If you split the squad into an assault configuration the A section will have the squad leader and the binoculars so may be a better option if scanning the terrain at distance is desired.

Panzer-grenadier squads often have smoke grenades. Whilst you cannot use them from the vehicle, they are useful for when they are dismounted to provide cover.

With practice you will find you can position a SPW hull down where the gunner is less exposed and using a short cover arc means they will not engage a target and less likely to be spotted and in turn be engaged. This only works at distance – 300m plus being ‘safe’ against rifle fire but up to around 500m against MG fire.

If attacking with SPW and infantry mounted you MUST ensure that you suppress the enemy. Launching an attack against unsuppressed enemy forces in Combat Mission will not end well for the attacking SPW. So, ensure enemy/defenders are SUPRESSED. Not firing back but cowering and hugging the dirt. SUPRESSED!

If you want a deeper dive then check out the attached PDF. These two videos give a CM-specific view which might also be of interest?

“Tactically Correct Driving with the Armored Personnel Carrier” by @Bil Hardenberger

https://battledrill.blogspot.com/2020/02/tactically-correct-driving-armored.html

Combat Mission Units: Summary and overview of German Halftracks SKDFZ 251 in CMRT and advice on their pros and cons in game by @Usually Hapless  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQrOjrJKoJI

 Hope you find it clicks but feel free to ask questions here.

Cheery!

 

 

     

 

     

 

 

SPW Training Missions Tactics and Lessons_FINAL.pdf

Edited by George MC
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IIRC I played this with little trouble.  The successful tactic is to locate the enemy positions with carefully moving inf scouts (even sound contacts are accurate in CM) and then find the furthest away location (ie: safest) to use all 4 SPW's to fire at suspected or known enemy postions for a few minutes.

Edited by Erwin
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1 hour ago, Erwin said:

IIRC I played this with little trouble.  The successful tactic is to locate the enemy positions with carefully moving inf scouts (even sound contacts are accurate in CM) and then find the furthest away location (ie: safest) to use all 4 SPW's to fire at suspected or known enemy postions for a few minutes.

Spot on advice. 

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9 hours ago, Erwin said:

IIRC I played this with little trouble.  The successful tactic is to locate the enemy positions with carefully moving inf scouts (even sound contacts are accurate in CM) and then find the furthest away location (ie: safest) to use all 4 SPW's to fire at suspected or known enemy postions for a few minutes.

That's basically what I did. I went out of luck when I lost 7 casualties (!) in the first ambush position (2 green soviet scouts ! what a shame !); I never had any contact, even tentative, either with my two (overwatched) scouts, or with the overwatching squad when my own scouts got shot one after the other. The AI, in the return match, got instant contact with the Soviet scouts (I let them positioned in the very same corner) from the very same overwatch position I used! 🥴

I also positioned my SPW carefully, using hulldown positions as recommanded by @George MC's briefing and staying far enough from the enemy. Indeed 3 out of 4 of my SPW gunners survived the game, so I'm pretty satisfied with the way I used them.

Anyway I wasn't complaining about the result. This game is perfectly winnable as the German. (I nevertheless doubt the 10% German casualties is achievable together with the touch and occupy objectives, but that's another story).

My question was more about the intent of the lesson, especially regarding the use of the SPW. I still haven't understood what is the tactical aspect which is specific to mounted PanzerGrenadiers in this scenario... It really sounds like a classical infantry affair...

@George MC : thanks a lot for taking the time to answer. I obviously took the time to read all the briefing and designer's note (it would be stupid to rush in a "lesson" type scenario without doing so!). I also know Bill's website (very useful  indeed), and I had checked the link you provided a couple of weeks ago. I also have looked at all Usually Hapless "basics" tutorial. A must see for sure.

I still remain skeptical about the "reconnaissance" aspect of the mission, which in my understanding is not compatible with an "occupy" objective. This scenario sounds more like a coup-de-main operation to capture a bridge. Also, I was very surprised by the AI programming you performed on the SPW, as all the gunners got killed in a couple of minutes without pinning of wouding any of my troops. I was disappointed by this part of the lesson! 😉

Also, being a reconnaissance affair, I spent lot of time clearing the second wood patch from potential enemies, to use it as a fire base for the next step. It sounded logical from the briefing perspective but finally it looks very much like a loss of time...

Anyway I'll try it again as the German before switching to your next lesson, according to your advice. Since I wrote my first post I understood that the farm is only a "touch" objective, which opened some interesting perspectives...

 

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1 hour ago, PEB14 said:

That's basically what I did. I went out of luck when I lost 7 casualties (!) in the first ambush position (2 green soviet scouts ! what a shame !); I never had any contact, even tentative, either with my two (overwatched) scouts, or with the overwatching squad when my own scouts got shot one after the other. The AI, in the return match, got instant contact with the Soviet scouts (I let them positioned in the very same corner) from the very same overwatch position I used! 🥴

I also positioned my SPW carefully, using hulldown positions as recommanded by @George MC's briefing and staying far enough from the enemy. Indeed 3 out of 4 of my SPW gunners survived the game, so I'm pretty satisfied with the way I used them.

Anyway I wasn't complaining about the result. This game is perfectly winnable as the German. (I nevertheless doubt the 10% German casualties is achievable together with the touch and occupy objectives, but that's another story).

My question was more about the intent of the lesson, especially regarding the use of the SPW. I still haven't understood what is the tactical aspect which is specific to mounted PanzerGrenadiers in this scenario... It really sounds like a classical infantry affair...

@George MC : thanks a lot for taking the time to answer. I obviously took the time to read all the briefing and designer's note (it would be stupid to rush in a "lesson" type scenario without doing so!). I also know Bill's website (very useful  indeed), and I had checked the link you provided a couple of weeks ago. I also have looked at all Usually Hapless "basics" tutorial. A must see for sure.

I still remain skeptical about the "reconnaissance" aspect of the mission, which in my understanding is not compatible with an "occupy" objective. This scenario sounds more like a coup-de-main operation to capture a bridge. Also, I was very surprised by the AI programming you performed on the SPW, as all the gunners got killed in a couple of minutes without pinning of wouding any of my troops. I was disappointed by this part of the lesson! 😉

Also, being a reconnaissance affair, I spent lot of time clearing the second wood patch from potential enemies, to use it as a fire base for the next step. It sounded logical from the briefing perspective but finally it looks very much like a loss of time...

Anyway I'll try it again as the German before switching to your next lesson, according to your advice. Since I wrote my first post I understood that the farm is only a "touch" objective, which opened some interesting perspectives...

 

Whilst it’s a ‘recce’ style mission it’s combat reconnaissance. Ie point squad leading the platoon. The platoon’s aim is to secure the bridge. 

Yup reading the briefing and being super clear what the objectives are is super important to creating a course of action  - the farm is relevant but not important - the bridge is relevant and important .

Re the lesson aim - well to get used to the issues you’ve highlighted in your initial post and some tips for how to use the SPW units both doctrinally correct and ditching the constraints of the CM game engine. So game engine stuff like splitting squads, overwatch, MG gunners being bullet magnets. Oh and try not to go into woods head to head with Soviet SMG gunners!
 

Yeah playing as AI against the Germans. Yup never really intended it played that way but BFC releases have scenarios playable both sides. Don’t mean they work playing both sides… let’s face it if you can’t beat the Soviets then the German AI has even less chance!!

 

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I also have the feeling that the hidden lesson in these kind of missions are that you have to be aware of soviet anti tank rifles. 

In the western front games you kind of feel save if you stay out of bazooka/piat range and know that there is no other vehicle or canon around. There is simply no such small infantry at weapon you can use at a distance. 

These rifles are pretty mobile and sneaky and can ruin the day of those SPW very easy. 

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1 hour ago, Brille said:

I also have the feeling that the hidden lesson in these kind of missions are that you have to be aware of soviet anti tank rifles. 

In the western front games you kind of feel save if you stay out of bazooka/piat range and know that there is no other vehicle or canon around. There is simply no such small infantry at weapon you can use at a distance. 

These rifles are pretty mobile and sneaky and can ruin the day of those SPW very easy. 

Well, not really...

When playing the Soviet vs German AI, after slaughtering the German infantry and killing the SPW gunner, I spent the 10 lats minutes of the game stalking the SPW with an ATR rifle. I scored about 8-10 hits at 120 meters range and generally less than 100 meters, with at least 4 penetrating hits. The only effect is that some of the SPW backed up somewhat - and not each time: sometimes they just sat there...

Edit: there were no passengers in the SPW at this time. Maybe there would have been casualties if there were passengers.

So the lesson I got is the exact opposite: don't care too much about AT rifles...

Edited by PEB14
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8 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

Do you mean you managed to kill crewmen of a German AT gun with AT rifles?

Yes, and they did material damage too. The guns were abandoned. A 1000 grain bullet traveling at 3000ft/sec. It makes Clint Eastwood jealous with his .44 Magnum pop gun. The bullet of the AT rifle has four times the mass and three times the velocity than Clints gun which can reportedly crack engine blocks.

 

Edited by chuckdyke
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4 hours ago, PEB14 said:

 

So the lesson I got is the exact opposite: don't care too much about AT rifles...

Yeah…. That’ll bite you in the arse… 🤣

ATRs do several things to light armoured vehicles (and done tanks with thin side armour). The behind armour effects are generally small BUT if the round intercepts with any crew it’ll generally KIA them. This causes disruption to the crews morale with the vehicle often panicking. That can be, and is very, disruptive to an attack.
 

They’ll easily pick off gunners in SPW and I have had ATRs nail support half tracks. Empty SPW are mainly big empty boxes so unless the hit is the front - where can kill driver or gunner it’s less likely to do significant damage though May degrade subsystems eg radio antenna, wheels and tracks. 
 

So they’re not an existential threat to empty SPW - though things like 251/9 can have a really bad day - but a real irritant that can disrupt a mounted SPW attack. 
 

This AAR might give some insight into other players approaches. 
 

https://kriegsimulation.blogspot.com/2022/11/combat-mission-red-thunder-battle-pack.html

Edited by George MC
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1 hour ago, Bearstronaut said:

Try attacking a Soviet position with Stummels or armored recon vehicles and say that you don't have to worry about ATRs.

Well, Stummel are effective well beyond 200 meters, as are most recon vehicles…

 

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7 hours ago, PEB14 said:

Well, not really...

When playing the Soviet vs German AI, after slaughtering the German infantry and killing the SPW gunner, I spent the 10 lats minutes of the game stalking the SPW with an ATR rifle. I scored about 8-10 hits at 120 meters range and generally less than 100 meters, with at least 4 penetrating hits. The only effect is that some of the SPW backed up somewhat - and not each time: sometimes they just sat there...

Edit: there were no passengers in the SPW at this time. Maybe there would have been casualties if there were passengers.

So the lesson I got is the exact opposite: don't care too much about AT rifles...

Never said they are one-shot wonders. Nothing that uses tungsten ammunition is, actually (ww2 era). The effect after the penetration is minimal, so the rounds need to hit something vital to have an effect. Never the less they do hit something important from time to time. May it either be a crew member or the engine or something else. They keep those halftrack/light armored vehicles up their toes and backing up is sometimes all you need from them.

It is the best weapon you can have against those thinn armored targets at a distance. Heavy machine guns often fail to penetrate and to reveal a gun for a halftrack or an Panzerspähwagen is a waste.

 

Once I even destroyed a STUG III from the side with one bullet. Rare instance I know but it can happen. So they have their worth if you can deploy them right.

Edit: and the opponent has at least some thin skinned vehicles... :D

Edited by Brille
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I played all three of these and definitely learned or was reminded of things I need to know, most of which are discussed in the posts above.  There's a good video on youtube showing the first scenario, would be good to take a look at it.  I played the same battle w/o having watched that and got a win but at higher cost, having used different attack method.  I had three pronged attack that went pretty well, then got to the bushes and there were a couple of survivors w PPSH in sturdy building that hit my guys up close.  And my MGs had a hard time because the building was stone.  

In the video he sends everyone in right hook and has great success.  

The 3rd scenario is another good lesson in just how vulnerable the infantry is until the enemy is suppressed.  But you've got panthers & stummels and mortars and arty & pre-sited artillery spots plus a nice hill on the right.  But don't sit infantry in one place too long, russians have artillery also though they long delay times usually have them falling where you were a couple minutes ago -- if you keep moving.  

Edited by danfrodo
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11 hours ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

There is also a mod on the forum you'll have to search for (maaaaaaybe by Rockin' Harry, I don't remember for certain) that lowers the HT gunner in RT and it helps immensely.

They certainly aren't invulnerable, but they survive much better.

That's VERY interesting, as the halftracks gunners seem unrealistically vulnerable in CM. Does it work for US halftracks as well? I'm very interested by this mod, can you provide a link?

Edited by PEB14
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Thanks to everybody for the answers.

I followed GeorgeMC advice and had a second try after reviewing once again the briefing and designer's notes. I nevertheless stuck to my initial plan because 1) I am stubborn and 2) I was convinced that the concept was as sound as the execution was poor.

I proved right.

First I was a lot more lucky in the first ambush. I didn't manage to spot the Soviet team earlier, but only because the Soviets had started to retreat. So when they opened fire on my scout team I was able to slaughter the Soviets in the open at the cost of one slightly wounded man (instead of 7 casualties in my first try...).

I then proceeded to scout and mop up the second wood patch, even though I knew from my first try that nobody would be there. But I tried to play it "honestly"...

Then I attacked frontally the farm under the cover of one squad at he edge of the wood and of two SPW MGs. I coordinated the affair much better, made extensive use of the Assault order and added a flanking maneuver on the right that proved helpful (2 enemy killed). I also used the smoke grenades to cover exposed troops coming under fire, with some effect. I guess I played against another AI plan, because I found nobody in the stone farm. Or perhaps my suppressing fire was effective enough to forbid any retreat to it.

Anyway I got a Total Victory, even achieving the 10% loss condition for the German, which I thought impossible to achieve! Let's say that I played a lot better and that I got full luck!😉

So FINALLY I learned some lesson (slow learner...), that I want to share to get your helpful comments.

1) PzGr squads 2-teams organization has one main drawback: one you've sent scouts ahead, you cannot split the remaing six men into one manoeuver and one support element. That's a weakness.

2) PzGr squads 2-teams organization and 2-MG equipment make the Assault command particularly efficient: fast (only 2 teams move) and relatively safe (always 1 MG in cover).

3) SPW are very useful as suppressing unit... but only against low quality troops. At the end of the battle one of my SPW duelled at some 180 meters range with a Soviet SMG guy. For 10 seconds some bullets ricocheted on the gun mantle, and then the SMG guy was pinned. And once pinned it remained so until the end. Against better quality troops, I'm convinced that the Soviet gunner wouldn't have been pinned until the SPW gunner was killed. On the other hand, if you back your SPW far away to get safe against MG fire, the SPW MG fire's suppressing effect will stay ineffective against good quality troops. So my conclusion is that the SPW 251/1 are only effective against green or regular enemy troops. Am I correct?

Now I think I'm ready for the second lesson. Frightening briefing though: mines, barbed wires... 🥴

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12 hours ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

There is also a mod on the forum you'll have to search for (maaaaaaybe by Rockin' Harry, I don't remember for certain) that lowers the HT gunner in RT and it helps immensely.

They certainly aren't invulnerable, but they survive much better.

I vaguely remember the discussion, but can't remember if I installed  this mod. Don't seem to have it in my mod folders. Can anyone post a link please? @RockinHarry?

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By the way, doesn't the high mortality rate of halftrack gunners come from the lack of "pinned" status for vehicles passengers? As a matter of fact, "opened up" tank leaders go back to buttoned up state when they feel threatened, but I've never seen a halftrack MG gunner "hit the dirt" and reverse to buttoned up status when things get hot...

Edited by PEB14
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4 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

I vaguely remember the discussion, but can't remember if I installed  this mod. Don't seem to have it in my mod folders. Can anyone post a link please? @RockinHarry?

Related posts (with dropbox links) start here: https://community.battlefront.com/topic/120405-question-about-infantry-animation-files/?do=findComment&comment=1963489 When anybody wants trying it I recommend reading through follow up posts, which aren´t that many. Latest fileset link should be near end of the thread. I couldn´t continue for RL matters and lack of community interest wasn´t encouraging as well. Thanks and cheers! 🍻

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1 hour ago, PEB14 said:

By the way, doesn't the high mortality rate of halftrack gunners come from the lack of "pinned" status for vehicles passengers? As a matter of fact, "opened up" tank leaders go back to buttoned up state when they feel threatened, but I've never seen a halftrack MG gunner "hit the dirt" and reverse to buttoned up status when things get hot...

Yes, that's one of the reasons. It's been discussed extensively on these forums over the years.

Never really seen any wargame model these vehicles right. At least not as long as it's games where each bullet is traced. Then little details become extremely important, such as exactly how the gunner crouches over the gun to minimise exposure (not sitting up ramrod straight), how he in real life would be able to estimate the level of danger from moment to moment, and the way the driver would be intelligent enough to turn/angle the vehicle to face the threat properly.

Passengers in the vehicle would also be able to duck down if necessary, or peek over the sides depending on the situation.

At least with a trained crew, those details would make all the difference. In game though, behaviour is quite robotic, and that's less of a problem for tanks than for halftracks.

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1 hour ago, RockinHarry said:

Related posts (with dropbox links) start here: https://community.battlefront.com/topic/120405-question-about-infantry-animation-files/?do=findComment&comment=1963489 When anybody wants trying it I recommend reading through follow up posts, which aren´t that many. Latest fileset link should be near end of the thread. I couldn´t continue for RL matters and lack of community interest wasn´t encouraging as well. Thanks and cheers! 🍻

That's us, Harry, always moaning and never satisfied. You deserve better, my friend. 🍻

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7 hours ago, PEB14 said:

one you've sent scouts ahead, you cannot split the remaing six men into one manoeuver and one support element. That's a weakness.

Yes, a problem with all titles.  In CMBS the Ukrainian 7 man squad can be split into 3 elements:  2 x 2 man teams and 1 x 3 man team.  This gives much more flexibility.  Cannot understand if BF is saying that it is unrealistic for NATO forces to split into three teams or...?  

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