Bobjack1240 Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 I've read a variety of inconsistent sources that state GSFG started getting them in 1976, 1977, or as early as 1972. Is there any historical documentation/records that shows when they first started arriving? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 12 hours ago, Bobjack1240 said: I've read a variety of inconsistent sources that state GSFG started getting them in 1976, 1977, or as early as 1972. Is there any historical documentation/records that shows when they first started arriving? I love a good kit intro question. The US are far easier as they have archived all their senate arms appropriation meetings. Soviets are a little tougher. So a good source is the Freedom of Information stuff from the CIA back in the day. Then you have to kinda bracket the thing in: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/cia-rdp81m00980r001200150003-0 "We understand that last year U.S. military leaders mistook deployment. of the Soviet T64 tank for the T72, especially in East. Germany. Please discuss this matter and state whether the T72 is now being deployed. 22. Please provide an historical table showing Soviet military manpower levels for each of the past ten years, and deployments in East Europe." So the letter was from 1978, so 1977 seem to be a lock. Now were the observed in 1976? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amedeo Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 The GSFG T-64s (misidentified for T-72s) were indeed first sighted by USMLM in 1976, see the Sept. 14th entry in uh1976cpr.pdf (coldwarspies.com) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Just now, Amedeo said: The GSFG T-64s (misidentified for T-72s) were indeed first sighted by USMLM in 1976, see the Sept. 14th entry in uh1976cpr.pdf (coldwarspies.com) Oh, I love this kind of stuff. I see the entry for T72s but where does it say they were T64s? Or was this the event mentioned in the CIA doc? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amedeo Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 10 minutes ago, The_Capt said: Oh, I love this kind of stuff. I see the entry for T72s but where does it say they were T64s? Or was this the event mentioned in the CIA doc? I presume it is, since no T-72s were actually deployed in GSFG and the USMLM crews were too experienced to confuse an older type tank (T-62, T-55 etc.) for something new. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Just now, Amedeo said: I presume it is, since no T-72s were actually deployed in GSFG and the USMLM crews were too experienced to confuse an older type tank (T-62, T-55 etc.) for something new. Ah and I found academic corroboration as well - https://www.usni.org/press/books/nato-and-warsaw-pact-tanks-cold-war I have a copy from an online library and Green says on page 283 "1976" as first introduction into East Germany. Outstanding, so the T64 is on the menu for BAOR from the start. It will effect rarity but there it is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobjack1240 Posted March 8, 2023 Author Share Posted March 8, 2023 (edited) "120mm APDS is considered capable of achieving initial perforation on the upper glacis armor at a maximum range of 1,000 meters and the frontal turret armor at 500 meters." Based on Soviet tests of 120mm apds from Iranian Chieftains provided by Iraq against T-72 Ural. Edited March 8, 2023 by Bobjack1240 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amedeo Posted April 29, 2023 Share Posted April 29, 2023 Also this Dutch intelligence report indicates 1976 as the year in which GSFG started getting T-64s:http://www.stichtingargus.nl/bvd/m/lamid-wpmodernisering.pdf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 This right here,...is good stuff! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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