Kriegsburg 1980 Discussion

[Simcoe]

First off, this thread isn’t meant to be a pity party. Just thought me getting my butt kicked might make for an interesting discussion.

Currently playing Kreigsburg 1980 and I'm getting my butt kicked by T-64's. They showed up along my left flank where I had 2 M-150's and 2 M60's. I started to engage them between 1500/2000 yards and it doesn't seem like anything can stop them. They destroy my M150's before the missile can hit its target and my m60 rise can't seem to hit anything. When either hit a shot they bounce off. 
 

Has anyone else done a PBEM in Kreigsburg 1980? What was your experience?
 

Also, is there an issue with the M60 Rise? It is pretty consistently shooting over the target no matter the distance. One of them lost a 2000 meter tank duel to one of the Soviet light tanks.

[Halmbarte]

I think the M60 RISE is still using a coincidence range finder, which doesn't help it get hits at longer ranges. Depending on which model T64 you're up against they can have laser rangefinder's. 

M60s vs T64/72/80 is a similar situation to US M4 Shermans vs Panther in WWII. You aren't going to win long range tank duels. Canalize them, strip the infantry off, & hit them from the sides. 

The big difference with WWII anti-German tank tac tactics and CW tank tactics is that the Germans probably never actually fielded a full strength Panther battalion in combat. The Sov OTOH...

H

[Simcoe]

52 minutes ago, Halmbarte said:

I think the M60 RISE is still using a coincidence range finder, which doesn't help it get hits at longer ranges. Depending on which model T64 you're up against they can have laser rangefinder's. 

M60s vs T64/72/80 is a similar situation to US M4 Shermans vs Panther in WWII. You aren't going to win long range tank duels. Canalize them, strip the infantry off, & hit them from the sides. 

The big difference with WWII anti-German tank tac tactics and CW tank tactics is that the Germans probably never actually fielded a full strength Panther battalion in combat. The Sov OTOH...

H

Thanks for the heads up. I figured I had the range/optics advantage.

[domfluff]

You will have superior optics, but a worse fire control system - you'll usually spot first, but the T-64 will tend to *hit* first, and the T-64's armour is a significant advantage.

[Simcoe]

Just now, domfluff said:

You will have superior optics, but a worse fire control system - you'll usually spot first, but the T-64 will tend to *hit* first, and the T-64's armour is a significant advantage.

That definitely tracks with my experience. I'm situated behind a rise and popping up for a couple shots then backing out. My tanks always seem to miss the first shot but T-64's don't.

[Halmbarte]

A lot of the NATO tank's spotting advantage is/should be from fighting heads out, which isn't normal Sov doctrine. 

When I am playing the Sov one of the things I make a point of is to use artillery or MG fire to get the Americans to button up. 

H

[LuckyDog]

***Spoliers***

I played as the Soviets and had a shaky start before I figured out how the terrain impacts spotting. I won a major victory - I lost five tanks, mostly to infantry and M150s. I didn't spot the M150s with my tanks; I used arty to degrade/destroy them. I had a couple of point-blank encounters (well <200m) with M60s where my T64s took one or two hits and little to no damage. Due to my inability/lack of interest in fighting simultaneous battles, I ended up with a pack of 9 T64s that I moved as a pack, and they smashed an M60 counterattack they ran into for no losses - I think I picked the easy side! I'm going to try the 1981/1982 scenario next. 

[ftukfgufyrdy]

On 2/8/2023 at 9:21 AM, Halmbarte said:

I think the M60 RISE is still using a coincidence range finder, which doesn't help it get hits at longer ranges. Depending on which model T64 you're up against they can have laser rangefinder's. 

M60s vs T64/72/80 is a similar situation to US M4 Shermans vs Panther in WWII. You aren't going to win long range tank duels. Canalize them, strip the infantry off, & hit them from the sides. 

The big difference with WWII anti-German tank tac tactics and CW tank tactics is that the Germans probably never actually fielded a full strength Panther battalion in combat. The Sov OTOH...

H

I remember playing the US campaign and having to set my M60s off to the side of where the Soviet FSE was going to approach from. I played through it before having set the M60s up on the hill overlooking the valley and they all got turned into scrap metal in 2 turns. Having the M60s in hull-down defilade hitting the Sovs from the flank is probably the best way I found to fight them without too many losses. 

[Chudacabra]

I am playing the 1982 version PBEM as the US. The M60A3 TTS is quite impressive, although it is lacking in armour penetration. My opponent has been too cautious and has not committed in mass, which has made it much easier for me. I think the one good thing about the M60 is that it is very good at destroying anything that isn't a better Soviet MBT. It's a tough battle, but shoot and scoot, especially with smoke, can be a good way to hit Soviet tanks in their flanks as well as degrade them with frontal hits.