Second Front

[Bufo]

11 minutes ago, Bufo said:

2 tanks (1 each side) are free to use for everybody, so you can check it yourself.

Also the graphics are bad, since the game was designed to be an air game so everything looks nice from above, but not from the ground.

[Bufo]

Talee-ho corners review:  https://tallyhocorner.com/2023/02/second-front-review/

[Bufo]

Barrel Drills review: https://www.barreldrill.com/second-front-review/

[benpark]

After playing a bit more, I like it for what it is.

The developer added an "unlock all missions" toggle, which is greatly appreciated. Many of us are too busy to grind on anything, and know the basic wargame-format drill besides.

There are many calls for off-board/indirect-fire artillery, which isn't in. That may be added before any DLC, from reading the scuttlebutt on the various chatter-spots. That seems to be a fairly large missing bit so far. Maybe air as well, though it seems lass necessary at the scale.

Main pains after more play-

-I find the camera restrictive- I want a free camera, every time. It's "3D" for a reason.

-The randomness is brutal. I embrace chaos and randomness as a fact of life, but it still seems to impact the game's relation to simulating reality in a negative way.

-No modding. WYSIWYG. I'd like to get at those graphic files to alleviate some of the comic-style elements.

The good-

-Map maker/scenario maker is easy to use, and can do all manner of things in a fairly basic (hex-based) way.

-Soviet Union versus Germany, right out of the box. US, as well. Though no US vs. USSR.

-Campaigns seem to get around some of the gamey aspects, as they are contiguous.

[kevinkin]

I have SF too. benpark's comments are spot on. I think game may attract more board gamers to PC wargames than the other way around. The system cries for MP and a random scenario generator to support that. You could complete an old fashioned ASL type game with a bubby in an evening. The developers are very protective of the combat results and randomness. I can't remember exactly, but ASL often was that way and game came down to the final die roll. FOW is nothing like CM. And the phases within turns provide a completely different feel to the combat. But this is by design. I think you will always play CM much more, but with a quick to set up and play MP system, the developers should do well. 

[RockinHarry]

Well... "played" 2 tutorial missions and figured out UI and moving/shooting things fairly easily. Without reading the manual or else. Good. When units are shooting each other, results seem very random. Don´t see much relation between (infantry) weapon systems, terrain and fire effects. On map navigation is okay, but I miss panning with the middle mouse wheel/button and other things adding to my comfort usually. Might try some the armor (tutorial) missions next, but I don´t expect seeing anything better than infantry "combat". (3D) Graphics... okay the looks don´t disturb me as much as I thought. It does the purpose and I could easily tolerate it if combat results and some other behaviors (routing) would resemble something "realistic". Should´ve waited for sale (as intended initially), but spending ~30$ didn´t hurt me thaaat much. I´ll leave Second Front on my HD. It´s just 4 GB and I don´t need the space elsewhere ATM. I´ll let Steam update it automatically when it wants to. If any upcoming patches/updates indicate that the game gets considerable improvements or changes, I might try again.

Well... at least from checking this out my interest in Lock´n Load Tactical Digital revived again. It´s much nicer (although "just" 2D), has an apparently way better combat system, many more features and is way more realistic overally.  I already have 7 DLC, but never tried playing (and learning) in seriousness. lol But no doubt it´s a far better investment than SF.

Edit: "Nations at War Digital" ain´t bad as well IMO.

Edited February 7, 2023 by RockinHarry

[benpark]

17 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

my interest in Lock´n Load Tactical Digital revived again

These two games have a commonality that I picked up on, as well. I also like that one, and the Ln'L game gets the randomness down in my book better for something of this type.

Ln'L also has had a great art department, with (probably/maybe still) Marc von Martial doing his thing with the maps (since CC!) and (probably/maybe still) Nikolas Eskubi's counters. It's no mean feat to get a consistent look down for a game. Second Front's developer made the assets, I believe- I think he also sells them on the Unity store, so there may be some cart/horse criticism that the game contained oft-used stuff, when he made the art in Second Front in the first place. If the infantry were re-worked, I'd probably never give the look too much more thought.

I think part of my liking these two games in particular is that I really don't buy many board wargames (unless something with a really spectacular map!), and gave up on my (Napoleonic) miniature painting long ago. Second Front is like that desired miniature board diorama set-up, and Ln'L is a boardgame without the set-up/space commitment/tear down. And CM is for seeing how things may really have played out (and will remain my mainstay, due to its Editor, simulation properties, and other fine offerings). I'll give thanks to the computer on that one, but will miss the chance to someday set up a massive display of paper and cardboard nonsense like Drang nach Osten or Streets of Stalingrad in the middle of everyone's business here at home.

Edited February 7, 2023 by benpark

[kevinkin]

Agree, if you want to try a board like game for a change and went only one way it would be LnL. SF is has to add some important things and the 3D effects are briefly interesting. But without replay or a detailed LOS system, they are really not needed. I will be watching to see how SF evolves. But without MP and off-map arty, it's still work in progress which is OK. Being a wargame geek, I had to buy it just to see. 

[landser]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:57 PM, kevinkin said:

 ASL often was that way and game came down to the final die roll.

This is why I've given this game a miss so far. It checks most of my boxes. It's turn based. Small unit. Tactical.

But they've opted for RNG-based,  instead of percentage or probability based, combat mechanics, haven't they? Not inherently bad, and keeps to the Advanced Squad Leader vibe it's dripping with. But also not really for me, or so it seems. Haven't closed the door, and I'm keeping tabs on it. Combat in Second Front seems more in line with a isometric RPG than a tactical simulator. I won't knock a game for what it isn't, but the upshot is I've taken a pass.

[kevinkin]

ASL has a player base that goes back to the 70's and nostalgia is a big thing for them. Holding printed game components and figuring out the complex rules is a part of the experience. Prior to PC games,  MP was essentially zero. Solitaire ruled and players developed modified rules to fit their understanding of combat. I think SF has a chance to have staying power but it rests on MP. As I mentioned, you really can finish a scenario on a Saturday night. Just an email system would work. SF will not replace games like CM, but it could carve out a sustainable market. Maybe that market is already with LnL (which is very affordable now).  I think the nostalgia is getting me too. And I am afraid the dice aren't going anywhere. Almost like backgammon without betting and a doubling cube. Momma give me those snake eyes. 

[RockinHarry]

Hm..... maybe I´s bits too quick and thus unfair. After having played another half dozen tutorial missions, I started having some fun. Maybe also was too much focusing on brand "Microprose" (thinking of Sid Meier and such). In fact SF has little to do with MP (is just publisher). http://www.hexdraw.com/Word/second-front/  I´ll try some real missions and then campaign, then see further... The guy seems also responsible for Tank on Tank Digital https://store.lnlpublishing.com/tank-on-tank-series

Aargh... and another push on the trigger. https://gunnerheatpc.com/ Anybody tried that one yet? Nice relation to Microprose again since M1 Tank Platoon was my first tank sim IIRC.

[Vacillator]

2 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

M1 Tank Platoon was my first tank sim IIRC

I think me too, on an Atari ST into which I'd soldered extra memory (16 chips, each with 16 pins) directly onto the motherboard, yikes .  I did like that game though, in between bouts (sometimes weekends) of Dungeon Master or the original Doom.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Vacillator

[BletchleyGeek]

4 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Aargh... and another push on the trigger. https://gunnerheatpc.com/ Anybody tried that one yet? Nice relation to Microprose again since M1 Tank Platoon was my first tank sim IIRC.

Very fun tank sim. But I would auggest to wait for the dynamic campaign to be out.

[benpark]

5 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Anybody tried that one yet?

Played that one thrice so far- good, but it needs something.

Agreed with BletchleyGeek about the upcoming dynamic campaign that may add some greater sense of continuity. I'll definitely reinstall when they add infantry. Tank sims seem empty with them to me.

There are a bunch of interesting games relating to history dropping or that were released over the past few months. Good to see.

[BletchleyGeek]

20 minutes ago, benpark said:

Tank sims seem empty with them to me.

That was what knocked Tank Crew dead in the water for me (and I bought into Tank Crew very, very early and I was happy to keep an open mind). GHPC at least have been showing infantry operating TOWs and stuff, not sure if they have those already integrated into the game.

[RockinHarry]

6 hours ago, Vacillator said:

I think me too, on an Atari ST into which I'd soldered extra memory (16 chips, each with 16 pins) directly onto the motherboard, yikes .  I did like that game though, in between bouts (sometimes weekends) of Dungeon Master or the original Doom.

 

4 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

Very fun tank sim. But I would auggest to wait for the dynamic campaign to be out.

yeah, I knew it´s "early access" and at ~25$ I couldn´t resist (again). lol

2 hours ago, benpark said:

Played that one thrice so far- good, but it needs something.

Agreed with BletchleyGeek about the upcoming dynamic campaign that may add some greater sense of continuity. I'll definitely reinstall when they add infantry. Tank sims seem empty with them to me.

There are a bunch of interesting games relating to history dropping or that were released over the past few months. Good to see.

yeah, it bits of suck without infantry and supporting weapons, but my curiosity won again. lol

2 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

That was what knocked Tank Crew dead in the water for me (and I bought into Tank Crew very, very early and I was happy to keep an open mind). GHPC at least have been showing infantry operating TOWs and stuff, not sure if they have those already integrated into the game.

Yep, that´s among things that so far hindering me from purchase. Too little content, but I keep it on my list.

Just checked couple cardboxes containing all my games since the 1980ies (Atari 800XL, C64, PC)

Those that have some relation to 1st person view tank play in one way or another are:

1. Steel Thunder, 1989
2. Sands of Fire (360), 1989
3. M1 Tank Platoon 1+2,1989, 1998
4. Pacific Islands, 1992
5. Armored Fist, 1994
6. 1944 Across the Rhine, 1995

7. M4 Tank Simulator, 1996 (PC)
8. Panzer Commander, 1998
9. iPanzer '44, 1998
10. Panzer Elite, 1999
11. Steel Fury Kaharkov 1942, 2007 (currently in my Steam)

12. Panzer Killer, 2007
13. Red Orchestra 1+2, 2006, 2011 (currently in my Steam)
14. T34 vs Tiger, 2008
15. Steel Armor: Blaze of War, 2011
16. ARMA 1,2,3 (3 currently in my Steam)
17. Iron Front Lib 44, 2012 (as ARMA 3 Mod in Steam)
18. Gunner, HEAT, PC!, 2022 (now in my Steam)

(I neither like true arcade nor online play, thus I never tried or purchased any that stuff)

The hunt for THAT 3D Tank Sim still continues (WW2 or modern)..... lol

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by RockinHarry

[RockinHarry]

Apropos Microprose... I could well imagine this to be a tool for map and mission making (viewing a particular historical area in 3D fore reference):
https://www.microprose.com/games/outerra-world-sandbox/

[RockinHarry]

Just spent an hour with Gunner, HEAT, PC! Just bits of driving around with various vehicles (truck, T55, Abrams and a Bimp), shooting at things that don´t shoot back (training mission). It all looks fairly unfinished and graphics quality is roughly comparable to ARMA3, but with yet far less overall detail. Since it´s "early access" that was to be expected. But thus far I like what I´ve seen. Performance was between 30-40 FPS on my medioce PC, but there wasn´t much AI involved. No enemies and a dozen friendlies present in that training mission (among selectable "missions").

Steering vehicles is pretty simple (WASD and few more) and available key commands (F1 makes a small screen pop up, showing all available) can be fairly easily memorized. Gunnery is equally simple (guns and MGs). It´s mouse left and right button clicks and drawing for coarse and fine aiming. Pretty cool actually. For actual combat I expect quick reaction ability when things get hot. https://gunnerheatpc.com/news/articles/getting-started-in-ghpc

Sound and FX is fairly well made although not perfect. ATM it all looks more like a "shooter game" but in fact all the sim elements are under the hood. After quitting that training mission I got a ballistics results screen showing ALL shots that hit any vehicles. (since there wasn´t an enemy AI active I shot up every vehicle that was present on map. Both russian and US). Ballistics results were shown both on the 3D map and a text window. Similar to GT but way more detailed. So that 25$ seems like a good investement considering the game is just at the beginning and the roadmap is extensive. https://gunnerheatpc.com/news/articles/ghpc-early-access-roadmap

[Thomm]

Since it seems to be okay to talk about other games:

Easy Red 2 ... is awesome!

For just 8,99 €  / 9,61 € it offers phenomenal fun!

IMHO

Best regards
Thomm

[Redwolf]

21 minutes ago, Thomm said:

Since it seems to be okay to talk about other games:

Easy Red 2 ... is awesome!

For just 8,99 €  / 9,61 € it offers phenomenal fun!

IMHO

Best regards
Thomm

Looks cool. Does it have single-player content?

 

[Thomm]

2 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

Looks cool. Does it have single-player content?

It is basically single-player. You are a member of a squad or a vehicle crew, which consists of bots. You can also command the squad using basic commands, call in artillery, etc.

You have several campaigns to fight through (Crete, Anzio, some Japanese island, Stalingrad as DLC).

Additionally, there is multiplayer, even though few people are online.
In these games, 95 % of the soldiers are bots, so part of the fun is to find and hit the few human players (most of the time they use the available vehicles, and when on foot, they can often be identified as those who act more self-preserving than the bots ).

There is constant action, the game system produces many epic moments.

I had to deinstall it (after finishing the Stalingrad DLC missions), because it started to affect my productivity.

I intend to buy future DLCs.
Love the game as it is light-weight, yet so much fun!

[RockinHarry]

24 minutes ago, Thomm said:

Since it seems to be okay to talk about other games:

Easy Red 2 ... is awesome!

For just 8,99 €  / 9,61 € it offers phenomenal fun!

IMHO

Best regards
Thomm

Why shouldn´t it be ok? 70-80% of ongoing forum activities is ukraine war and while it interests me personally (the actual war), it´s a big YAWN from BFC games player perspective. With BFC apparently almost exclusively busy with their "pro" version, there´s nothing that interests me as CM player. Soooo.....

....checked Easy Red 2 on steam and read the user feedback, then wondered this shooter never appeared in any my steam lists! Took me few minutes to decide purchasing it! (game + DLC for 12 Euro!!) Read (and saw) it´s Orchestra 2 quality content that can actually be played and enjoyed single player! Just what I needed! Download now at 60% (6GB overally).

Thanks Thomm!

[Erwin]

Yes, it does look good.  Am also curious if it's good for single-player or is it a MMOG?

[Thomm]

7 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Yes, it does look good.  Am also curious if it's good for single-player or is it a MMOG?

It is primarily single-player! Do not expect anything else!

Multiplayer is great as is (IMHO), but at present few people are online. You are basically fighting along and against bots with two or three other human players, who, when armed with a good tank or a MG, can have a disproportional influence on the battlefield.

Best regards
Thomm

Edited February 16, 2023 by Thomm
(grammar)

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

Yes, it does look good.  Am also curious if it's good for single-player or is it a MMOG?

It´s SP, coop and pvp. Single player is said to be quite good and way better than RO2 in example (not a big achievment though lol).

Some user review:
"Highly approachable, simple, and most important: fun!

Gameplay
Don't let the graphics fool you, this easy-to-approach World War Two shooter is highly realistic and has some of the most fun and enjoyable gameplay from any FPS that I've played. It does a fantastic job depicting large battles with intelligent AI that will seek cover, return accurate fire, and generally hold their own. Rushing a well-defended AI objective is an easy way to die.

Content
Easy Red II also includes easy-to-use Map and Mission Editors as well as Workshop support for never-ending content. The Map Editor is highly approachable and includes the ability to import .png height maps - allowing players to easily build their favorite terrain depictions from real-world data. The Mission Editor is also highly simplified - placing a few AI spawn points and objectives is a quick way to build a fast and fun battle.

Developership
This is also a highly dedicated developer who is constantly improving the game with frequent patch updates and is closely tied with the community - often personally taking bug reports and implementing fixes and new features at players request.

What I'd Like To See
I'd like to see the developer branch out beyond World War Two. Korea, Vietnam, and a hypothetical early Cold War Europe would be great and totally fitting settings for the scale of Easy Red II.

Improvements to the sound design are also much needed. Sound effects are still lacking and I think the best way to improve this area is to just let players mod the sounds.

Bottom Line
Easy Red II is a MUST buy. It is a fun and approachable FPS that does a great job depicting real-world tactics, and we should continue to support these types of developers that are working so hard to deliver quality products."

and it still looks better than any CM game "pro modded":

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by RockinHarry
stuff added