Battle pack resources

[George MC]

Hi all

I've created this post to make available some resources that may be of use to players.

I've attached the Five Days One Summer campaign flowchart - so you can see where you are going, if you wish. If you'd rather not see into the future then best not read it.

I've attached the Tigers at Ogledow campaign flowchart - again possible spoilers here so if you'd rather not know, don't look!

Also I've attached a SPW Training Missions Tactics and Lessons document. This document provides a deeper overview of the doctrine and tactics taught (and used) by German armored panzer grenadier units equipped with the Sdkfz 251 halftrack and its variants (referred to as a Schützenpanzerwagon or SPW) in the later part of the war, around 1944. Its main intent is to provide additional background to the series of scenarios and missions in the battle pack for Red Thunder, in particular the series of three SPW ‘Lesson’ series scenarios. My thanks to @domfluff who reviewed this and provided tactical insight, oh and it was his idea originally.

Five Days One Summer Wiking panzer grenadier mods - I've added a wee package of mods I used for the grenadiers in the Five Days One Summer. I basically assembled others excellent mods to create a look which is in the Wiking Mods GMc Mix . Main changes are grenadiers are in light battle rattle - no extraneous kit, crusher caps are M43s and senior officer has a 'Wiking' cuff band and a M43. My thanks to the talent and good will of Aris, @EZ (WSS Senior Officer and WSS camo uniforms), @Frenchy56 (Crusher and side caps to M43) @kohlenklau (No-gear mod - the campaign is mod tagged 'no gear') @Lucky_Strike (Senior officer peaked caps to M43s). I used Aris' Soviet tank mods, his Soviet faces and VM's summer Soviet uniforms.

Five Days Campaign Overview_v1.pdf SPW Training Missions Tactics and Lessons_FINAL.pdf

1831305623_FiveDaysOneSummerMods.rar

Tigers at Ogledow Campaign Overview_v1.pdf

Edited November 17, 2022 by George MC

[Vacillator]

And that gives me another chance to say thanks George .

[Erwin]

Useful.  Thanks George.

[George MC]

I added a wee Wiking panzer grenadier mod pack - see first post for details. 

[Vacillator]

There's nowt like a wee mod George, excellent!

[Simcoe]

14 minutes ago, George MC said:

I added a wee Wiking panzer grenadier mod pack - see first post for details. 

Thanks! Stupid question. This isn't already included with the battle pack? We need to download it separately?

[George MC]

1 minute ago, Simcoe said:

Thanks! Stupid question. This isn't already included with the battle pack? We need to download it separately?

It’s not a daft question - aye download it separately - it’s mods created by others and you can find it on the first post in this thread. 

[Modernrocco]

I was thinking those uniforms on the grenadiers and the Tank/SPW crews look really good.

[RockinHarry]

7 hours ago, George MC said:

Hi all

I've created this post to make available some resources that may be of use to players.

I've attached the Five Days One Summer campaign flowchart - so you can see where you are going, if you wish. If you'd rather not see into the future then best not read it.

Also I've attached a SPW Training Missions Tactics and Lessons document. This document provides a deeper overview of the doctrine and tactics taught (and used) by German armored panzer grenadier units equipped with the Sdkfz 251 halftrack and its variants (referred to as a Schützenpanzerwagon or SPW) in the later part of the war, around 1944. Its main intent is to provide additional background to the series of scenarios and missions in the battle pack for Red Thunder, in particular the series of three SPW ‘Lesson’ series scenarios. My thanks to @domfluff who reviewed this and provided tactical insight, oh and it was his idea originally.

Five Days One Summer Wiking panzer grenadier mods - I've added a wee package of mods I used for the grenadiers in the Five Days One Summer. I basically assembled others excellent mods to create a look which is in the Wiking Mods GMc Mix . Main changes are grenadiers are in light battle rattle - no extraneous kit, crusher caps are M43s and senior officer has a 'Wiking' cuff band and a M43. My thanks to the talent and good will of Aris, @EZ (WSS Senior Officer and WSS camo uniforms), @Frenchy56 (Crusher and side caps to M43) @kohlenklau (No-gear mod - the campaign is mod tagged 'no gear') @Lucky_Strike (Senior officer peaked caps to M43s). I used Aris' Soviet tank mods, his Soviet faces and VM's summer Soviet uniforms.

Five Days Campaign Overview_v1.pdf 167.86 kB · 13 downloads SPW Training Missions Tactics and Lessons_FINAL.pdf 507.64 kB · 17 downloads

1831305623_FiveDaysOneSummerMods.rar 103.97 MB · 8 downloads

Thanks for making these available George! Von Wehren´s PzGr. training book in particular. I´ve mine german original for years already and always wished it´s available for non german readers as well. Kudos! So it´s synopsis of what germans learned and experienced through preceding war years and then tried teaching all that to latest generation young Panzergrenadiers. Pity for them that it´s all too late, with battlefield combat circumstances changed dramatically and with 251s and fuel always been in short supply. But interesting read in any case and fun to try out in CM battles. There´s just BFC not modeling mounted combat in better ways though. Passenger vulnerability quite in particular. But much of it can get to work in the games. 

[Warts 'n' all]

More great work.

[George MC]

6 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Thanks for making these available George! Von Wehren´s PzGr. training book in particular. I´ve mine german original for years already and always wished it´s available for non german readers as well. Kudos! So it´s synopsis of what germans learned and experienced through preceding war years and then tried teaching all that to latest generation young Panzergrenadiers. Pity for them that it´s all too late, with battlefield combat circumstances changed dramatically and with 251s and fuel always been in short supply. But interesting read in any case and fun to try out in CM battles. There´s just BFC not modeling mounted combat in better ways though. Passenger vulnerability quite in particular. But much of it can get to work in the games. 

Aye it’s an interesting read. But aye given the increasingly prevailing strategic and tactical situation of limited application. 
 

One if the things I’ve sought to do is give players some pointers on how best to apply RL doctrine and tactics into CM given some game engine limitations and at least have done insight into how best to get the best out of their SPW/combined arms team. 

[ratdeath]

22 minutes ago, George MC said:

One if the things I’ve sought to do is give players some pointers on how best to apply RL doctrine and tactics into CM given some game engine limitations and at least have done insight into how best to get the best out of their SPW/combined arms team. 

Really like these type of scenarios, how to apply real life tactics within the Combat Mission world

Battlepacks with only training scenarios and manuals like the SPW Training Missions Tactics and Lessons would be awesome and I would buy them for any or all CM games.

[RockinHarry]

11 hours ago, George MC said:

Aye it’s an interesting read. But aye given the increasingly prevailing strategic and tactical situation of limited application. 
 

One if the things I’ve sought to do is give players some pointers on how best to apply RL doctrine and tactics into CM given some game engine limitations and at least have done insight into how best to get the best out of their SPW/combined arms team. 

Read it all through and got to say you made THAT CM Panzergrenadier reference manual. Yeah... those idiosyncrasies. This might interest you maybe:

 

[George MC]

12 hours ago, ratdeath said:

Really like these type of scenarios, how to apply real life tactics within the Combat Mission world

Battlepacks with only training scenarios and manuals like the SPW Training Missions Tactics and Lessons would be awesome and I would buy them for any or all CM games.

Aye good idea. I mind I need a whole series of tank battle problems in the old CMX1 for CMBB taken from a German panzer instruction manual. They're easy to do. Hhmmm...

[George MC]

2 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Read it all through and got to say you made THAT CM Panzergrenadier reference manual. Yeah... those idiosyncrasies. This might interest you maybe:

 

Spot on thanks  I've installed and playing through an old save of KG von Schroif

EDIT To Add: That does the trick! I mounted up a load of tracks and sent em into the valley of death. overall MG gunners have a greater survivability now and the MG firing tracks are way more of a threat to enemy infantry. I started losing gunners only at close range - like 100m or so.

Off we go - like how the passengers are huddled lower.

Engaging - note how close to the foxholes this track is and note the Soviet soldiers running off. Gunner was nailed not long after but notcied all the gunners made it a lot closer to an enemy position before I started seeing hits.

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by George MC

[RockinHarry]

6 hours ago, George MC said:

Spot on thanks  I've installed and playing through an old save of KG von Schroif

EDIT To Add: That does the trick! I mounted up a load of tracks and sent em into the valley of death. overall MG gunners have a greater survivability now and the MG firing tracks are way more of a threat to enemy infantry. I started losing gunners only at close range - like 100m or so.

Thanks for taking the time giving it a first try George! I know you´re a very busy man.

Gunner footprint is now only marginally smaller so his main weakness remains the way CM TacAI handling these (no seperate "open up" for HT crew and passengers i.e ) But good to see it has some beneficial effects. While adapting individual crew positions ( some minus on Z and plus/minus on Y axes) I tried making sure that none the pixeltroopers geometry/hitboxes protrude from the HT geometry. But can´t tell for sure if they still get full protection from their tweaked positions. I also didn´t take into account the Grenadier´s butts sinking more into the benches now. But..potection before looks in this case. I always assumed BFC set up sitting stances for sort of a "travel mode". But IMO highly inappropriate for a CM game that plays on an actual battle and not rear area, far from the enemy. Think the highest threat from infantry smallarms still is "plunging fire" from russkie sub machine guns. And off course low range rifle/MG fire at favorable angles.

 

6 hours ago, George MC said:

Engaging - note how close to the foxholes this track is and note the Soviet soldiers running off. Gunner was nailed not long after but notcied all the gunners made it a lot closer to an enemy position before I started seeing hits.

Yep, best gunner range is still normal lMG combat range which is 300m plus, better yet 5 to 800 meters. Pity we can´t apply "open up" in more useful ways. It´s a main stumbling block for getting HT tactics work in more realistic ways IMO.

So if you keep play testing this please let me know on any (new) issues! And as said it´s just K98k guys using the kneel stances here (and any other K98 guy who´s not a passenger). If you need other infantry classes (MP40, Stg44 etc) adapted as well, please let me know. It´s not much of an effort. Btw...did you ever see Grenadiers using hand grenades while riding the HT? I´d just tested area target fire <=30m, but to no avail.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by RockinHarry

[RockinHarry]

6 hours ago, George MC said:

Aye good idea. I mind I need a whole series of tank battle problems in the old CMX1 for CMBB taken from a German panzer instruction manual. They're easy to do. Hhmmm...

you likely mean 1941 Panzer-Kampfwagenbuch I guess? It has many nice small scale examples, likely worth a dozen or so CM training missions. I´ve ~20 or more original german tactics and training books, almost all dealing with infantry tactics in numerous combat situations, squad (up) to regimental scale. Pity I´ve so little time making some CM scenarios from my treasure troves. Some the training situations (or wargames) are also continuing battles, good for making some small training campaigns as well. Now with Butschi´s terrain generator it also seems possible recreating the original terrain as used in the training scenarios. Many are assumed to be "played" on small scale topo maps of 1930ies germany which are included with many the books.

[George MC]

3 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

you likely mean 1941 Panzer-Kampfwagenbuch I guess? It has many nice small scale examples, likely worth a dozen or so CM training missions. I´ve ~20 or more original german tactics and training books, almost all dealing with infantry tactics in numerous combat situations, squad (up) to regimental scale. Pity I´ve so little time making some CM scenarios from my treasure troves. Some the training situations (or wargames) are also continuing battles, good for making some small training campaigns as well. Now with Butschi´s terrain generator it also seems possible recreating the original terrain as used in the training scenarios. Many are assumed to be "played" on small scale topo maps of 1930ies germany which are included with many the books.

Aye that’s the one. Tank Battle Problems if I mind. I did a series in CMBB. 
 

Aye could make new maps but was thinking of heading to the map chop shop and slice and dicing some new ones!

Yeah be easy to do a training campaign. Whole range of possibilities here!

Edited November 18, 2022 by George MC

[George MC]

3 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Thanks for taking the time giving it a first try George! I know you´re a very busy man.

Gunner footprint is now only marginally smaller so his main weakness remains the way CM TacAI handling these (no seperate "open up" for HT crew and passengers i.e ) But good to see it has some beneficial effects. While adapting individual crew positions ( some minus on Z and plus/minus on Y axes) I tried making sure that none the pixeltroopers geometry/hitboxes protrude from the HT geometry. But can´t tell for sure if they still get full protection from their tweaked positions. I also didn´t take into account the Grenadier´s butts sinking more into the benches now. But..potection before looks in this case. I always assumed BFC set up sitting stances for sort of a "travel mode". But IMO highly inappropriate for a CM game that plays on an actual battle and not rear area, far from the enemy. Think the highest threat from infantry smallarms still is "plunging fire" from russkie sub machine guns. And off course low range rifle/MG fire at favorable angles.

 

Yep, best gunner range is still normal lMG combat range which is 300m plus, better yet 5 to 800 meters. Pity we can´t apply "open up" in more useful ways. It´s a main stumbling block for getting HT tactics work in more realistic ways IMO.

So if you keep play testing this please let me know on any (new) issues! And as said it´s just K98k guys using the kneel stances here (and any other K98 guy who´s not a passenger). If you need other infantry classes (MP40, Stg44 etc) adapted as well, please let me know. It´s not much of an effort. Btw...did you ever see Grenadiers using hand grenades while riding the HT? I´d just tested area target fire <=30m, but to no avail.

 

 

Aye cool - yeah working on a wee thing for next week

Re testing. As said defo noticed MG gunners seem better protected at closer ranges than previously. 
 

Passengers sit lower (I just ignored their butts melting into the seats. TBH you have to look closely).

I seemed to take less passenger casualties from enemy fire. 
 

Yeah re passengers firing - they always seem reluctant to do this. I’m not sure but <seems> they only do so when the enemy threat is perceived as less serious. I never saw em use grenades at close range and I managed to drive over several foxholes with cowering enemy soldiers in them. 

[domfluff]

I've long felt that training missions were a good idea - something above a simple "how to play the game" tutorial, but below a full scenario.

Ideal would be something that wasn't necessarily all that challenging, but still allows you to lose - essentially a "if you can't do this, you don't understand it" check.

Once you have this ideal situation locked down, the scenarios and campaigns proper can then give you the "real" version, on less than ideal terrain or with additional complexities.

That kind of thing would answer an awful lot of criticisms of various platforms and systems. At various times people have expressed frustration with Stryker, ifvs in general, the Italians, the British 2 inch mortar, halftracks, combat in urban and wooded terrain, etc. etc. 

The soviet tutorials in cold war do a good job of expressing some of the core tenets, and the second develops on the first. The halftrack tutorials in the bp do a similar job - I got more use out of the mortar halftracks as a combination of mobile direct and indirect fire than I've ever done before, and tutorial 3 might be my favorite scenario in the battlepack, for all of the above reasons.

[RockinHarry]

5 hours ago, George MC said:

Passengers sit lower (I just ignored their butts melting into the seats. TBH you have to look closely).

I seemed to take less passenger casualties from enemy fire. 

Yep, same here. Original placements ain´t perfect either. I very rarely zoom into any the vehicles interior thus I don care. As long as there´s no sticking out geometry from bounding boxes and such.

In the meantime I´ll add other weapon class pixeltrooper stances valid for a HT ride. Tweaking other troop carriers like 251C and 250 shouldn´t be big effort either. Then might do the tweaks for lend lease M5 as well. First I´ll do some more testing on the 251D in case I overlooked anything of importance.

5 hours ago, George MC said:

Yeah re passengers firing - they always seem reluctant to do this. I’m not sure but <seems> they only do so when the enemy threat is perceived as less serious. I never saw em use grenades at close range and I managed to drive over several foxholes with cowering enemy soldiers in them. 

I´ll run some these test as well. Maybe some low morale, scarce ammo russkies in FH/Trenches would be a good start for overrunning test actions. Then build up on that and see when HT actions become suicidal (like urban environments and unsuppressed opponents, whether they have AT assets or not).

[RockinHarry]

5 hours ago, domfluff said:

I've long felt that training missions were a good idea - something above a simple "how to play the game" tutorial, but below a full scenario.

Ideal would be something that wasn't necessarily all that challenging, but still allows you to lose - essentially a "if you can't do this, you don't understand it" check.

Once you have this ideal situation locked down, the scenarios and campaigns proper can then give you the "real" version, on less than ideal terrain or with additional complexities.

That kind of thing would answer an awful lot of criticisms of various platforms and systems. At various times people have expressed frustration with Stryker, ifvs in general, the Italians, the British 2 inch mortar, halftracks, combat in urban and wooded terrain, etc. etc. 

The soviet tutorials in cold war do a good job of expressing some of the core tenets, and the second develops on the first. The halftrack tutorials in the bp do a similar job - I got more use out of the mortar halftracks as a combination of mobile direct and indirect fire than I've ever done before, and tutorial 3 might be my favorite scenario in the battlepack, for all of the above reasons.

Good ideas. Then comparing applicability to any nations known tac doctrines and such.

[RockinHarry]

On 11/16/2022 at 6:46 PM, George MC said:

Five Days One Summer Wiking panzer grenadier mods - I've added a wee package of mods I used for the grenadiers in the Five Days One Summer. I basically assembled others excellent mods to create a look which is in the Wiking Mods GMc Mix . Main changes are grenadiers are in light battle rattle - no extraneous kit, crusher caps are M43s and senior officer has a 'Wiking' cuff band and a M43. My thanks to the talent and good will of Aris, @EZ (WSS Senior Officer and WSS camo uniforms), @Frenchy56 (Crusher and side caps to M43) @kohlenklau (No-gear mod - the campaign is mod tagged 'no gear') @Lucky_Strike (Senior officer peaked caps to M43s). I used Aris' Soviet tank mods, his Soviet faces and VM's summer Soviet uniforms.

Hey George, just downloaded it. Does it still work fine considering the latest 2.12 patch and it´s huge amount of content? I´d guess yes, but just wanted asking.

Edit: Looks like it does fine so far? Put in Aris HT mod as well. 1st battle of FDOS here.

 

my 251 mini mod looks working as well. Though there´s a lil offset of gunner now. Strange.

Edited November 20, 2022 by RockinHarry

[RockinHarry]

Fixed. Was an edit inaccuracy of mine not related to 2.12 patch. There´s no new 251/1 D model in there, so the "old" one is still valid. The guys left hand is still FUBAR, but who cares?

[Aragorn2002]

6 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Fixed. Was an edit inaccuracy of mine not related to 2.12 patch. There´s no new 251/1 D model in there, so the "old" one is still valid. The guys left hand is still FUBAR, but who cares?

Not sure whether I understand correctly, but is the extreme vulnerability of the MG gunner solved now?