Those D%$m 60mm Mortars Again!

[kb6583]

Yes I've been down this road already on this forum. I've gone back and reread my post and the responses. These 60mm mortars are still driving me nuts! Playing "Hot Time in Hatten" as the US. I have three 60mm mortars deployed near the church in Hatten. I have their mortar section HQ, their company cdr, and their Bn cdr on the 8th level of the church steeple. Lo and behold, several German infantry units become visible, i.e., solid icons. I first use the Bn cdr to call in those mortars on that German infantry. FOUR MINUTES to target. I call on the company cdr to call in the mortar's fire. FOUR MINUTES. I have the mortar section HQ call in fire (it's in command with its plt HQ) - THREE MINUTES. What am I missing here? Why can't I get them bombarding enemy units much, much sooner? BTW: In this scenario, these mortars have 89 rounds each; not the 30 rounds from other scenarios. After hours of playing this enjoyable game and frequently reading the posts on this forum, I'm STILL at a loss on how to get these 60mm mortars into the fight.

 

 

[JoMac]

Because you didn't purchase TRP's near the the Target Area to get them in half the time ?

Edited November 4, 2022 by JoMac

[Vacillator]

2 hours ago, kb6583 said:

Why can't I get them bombarding enemy units much, much sooner?

Unless they can direct fire I guess you can't?  I may be wrong, I often am.

[Artkin]

He's probably referring to the time before spotting rounds even begin to fall

[Phantom Captain]

5 hours ago, kb6583 said:

Yes I've been down this road already on this forum. I've gone back and reread my post and the responses. These 60mm mortars are still driving me nuts! Playing "Hot Time in Hatten" as the US. I have three 60mm mortars deployed near the church in Hatten. I have their mortar section HQ, their company cdr, and their Bn cdr on the 8th level of the church steeple. Lo and behold, several German infantry units become visible, i.e., solid icons. I first use the Bn cdr to call in those mortars on that German infantry. FOUR MINUTES to target. I call on the company cdr to call in the mortar's fire. FOUR MINUTES. I have the mortar section HQ call in fire (it's in command with its plt HQ) - THREE MINUTES. What am I missing here? Why can't I get them bombarding enemy units much, much sooner? BTW: In this scenario, these mortars have 89 rounds each; not the 30 rounds from other scenarios. After hours of playing this enjoyable game and frequently reading the posts on this forum, I'm STILL at a loss on how to get these 60mm mortars into the fight.

 

 

How long do you think they should take?  Four minutes for WWII for indirect is pretty darn quick.  Playing Iron mode it's even longer.  I'm looking at 3 and 4 minutes like, "wow that's fast!".  The only way they will be on quicker is for the mortars themselves to have actual line of sight to the target.  But then, the target will also have line of sight to to you as well.  Range is important.

[Phantom Captain]

Here....

This should help.

 

[Hilts]

Four minutes doesn't sound bad in the real world, especially considering it's WW2. I think the problem is that in game terms, four minutes (or turns) feels more like four hours. If you want them to fire quicker, you could always direct fire them. I do this almost always with on-map mortars.

[Bulletpoint]

I think the main issue is that 4 minutes is a long time if the mortar squad is placed inside voice range of the officer calling in the strike.

This has been discussed before, and as I understand it, CM1 had different rules and you could call in strikes very fast if you had officers in voice range - basically it would allow for indirect fire at the same speed as directly observed fire.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Bulletpoint

[Artkin]

Thank you Bulletpoint for being one of the only people to read the OP's post.

[domfluff]

Why would directing indirect fires be faster for being in voice contact?
 

 

 

[Hilts]

1 hour ago, Artkin said:

Thank you Bulletpoint for being one of the only people to read the OP's post.

LOL!

BTW kb, your mortars don't have 89 shells each. It's 89 in total if you have them near to each other. One of them will have fired a spotting round reducing the 90 to 89

[Artkin]

If a mortar thats outside of voice contact takes 4 minutes before spotting rounds start coming down, and a mortar that is in audio range also takes 4 minutes, something seems wrong with that.

This mechanic just doesn't exist in these games when it probably should.

[domfluff]

Why would there be a difference in timing?

[Artkin]

Youre cutting out any confusion over the radio surely, also not switching radio channels (Besides immediate HQs).

What are they spending 4 minutes doing? Looking at ranging tables?

I think it should be quicker but I'm open to learn what the mortar team will be doing while sitting around for 4 minutes.

This is clearly not modelled when the battalion + company hqs take 4 minutes to call in with the platoon leader taking 3.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Artkin

[domfluff]

So, whether it should actually be four minutes or not is really a different question, and there's certainly arguments about why that should be shorter, but that's the baseline we have, so that's what we're working with.

My confusion is that the mortar team in this scenario can't see the target, so the exact same ranging information needs to be communicated (in the US system this is a six step process, iirc), and that would be the case whether the mortar team and HQ are communicating through radio, vocally or tin cans - the actual information that needs to be relayed back and forth will be identical in every case.

The longer call-in times for higher level assets (battalion mortars or the like) are because the communications have to be relayed through more intermediaries, but in the case of the 60mm, it should be the same connecting thread regardless of comms method - the HQ will be talking to the mortar HQ, who will be talking to the mortars.

I could imagine some savings in time - there's no buttons to press, for one - and it could also waste time, since you're trying to shout from a distance, presumably over gunfire, and make yourself understood. I'm not sure in either case if the time difference would be meaningful, even in aggregate. 

Obviously the answer to the question: "What am I missing here? Why can't I get them bombarding enemy units much, much sooner?" is that the OP is likely better off using these in direct lay, if timing is an issue. 

[domfluff]

26 minutes ago, Artkin said:

This is clearly not modelled when the battalion + company hqs take 4 minutes to call in with the platoon leader taking 3.

I don't think I fully understand this sentence, but the mortar platoon HQ calling in one minute faster than the rifle company HQ (which is what I assume you're implying here)  makes hand-wavy sense to me, since there's one fewer step to communicate with. Again, plenty of scope to discuss about artillery call-in times in general, but that's specifically not the question here - we're working with what we're given.

I just rolled up a US rifle company in CMBN, with Veteran and Leadership +1 across the board. Baseline call-in times for the rifle platoon HQ and company HQ are 6 minutes, and the Mortar platoon HQ does this in 5 minutes. Shaving off that additional minute doesn't sound stupid to me in the context of what's presented, since the Mortar platoon HQ wouldn't have to relay each order twice - both responding to the fires order from their superior, and relaying that to their inferior.

[Artkin]

2 minutes ago, domfluff said:

I don't think I fully understand this sentence, but the mortar platoon HQ calling in one minute faster than the rifle company HQ (which is what I assume you're implying here)  makes hand-wavy sense to me, since there's one fewer step to communicate with. Again, plenty of scope to discuss about artillery call-in times in general, but that's specifically not the question here - we're working with what we're given.

I just rolled up a US rifle company in CMBN, with Veteran and Leadership +1 across the board. Baseline call-in times for the rifle platoon HQ and company HQ are 6 minutes, and the Mortar platoon HQ does this in 5 minutes. Shaving off that additional minute doesn't sound stupid to me in the context of what's presented, since the Mortar platoon HQ wouldn't have to relay each order twice - both responding to the fires order from their superior, and relaying that to their inferior.

Theyre all in audio range. 

I understand during a gunfight you wouldnt be able to hear a thing, but every HQ is on the same level in the building, and they should be in audible range as the OP described it. Maybe not. 

[chuckdyke]

For a British Infantry Platoon HQ, it takes 5 Minutes to call in of the map 81 mm mortars. That is in BN

[Bulletpoint]

On 11/5/2022 at 10:31 PM, domfluff said:

I don't think I fully understand this sentence, but the mortar platoon HQ calling in one minute faster than the rifle company HQ (which is what I assume you're implying here)  makes hand-wavy sense to me, since there's one fewer step to communicate with.

But the number of intermediaries doesn't make any difference to call times in the game. The only thing affecting indirect call times for on-map assets is the type of gun, and the experience levels of the caller and the asset.

When the mortar platoon HQ takes one minute less in the OP's example, I think that is because that particular HQ just happened to be a veteran instead of a regular.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Bulletpoint

[domfluff]

Nah, of course it is. That's why it's faster to call in battalion mortars than regimental fires, and faster to call in regimental assets than divisional or corps level assets, for the same soft factors.

[Bulletpoint]

58 minutes ago, domfluff said:

Nah, of course it is. That's why it's faster to call in battalion mortars than regimental fires, and faster to call in regimental assets than divisional or corps level assets, for the same soft factors.

I think you're talking about off-map support. I'm talking about on-map.

For off-map, there's a set extra time penalty depending on the level of the asset. But unless I'm remembering things wrong, it's still the same time to call them in no matter if you're doing it from a platoon HQ or a battalion commander.

(exception for using an FO, who get a call time bonus)

[PEB14]

On 11/7/2022 at 5:01 PM, domfluff said:

Nah, of course it is. That's why it's faster to call in battalion mortars than regimental fires, and faster to call in regimental assets than divisional or corps level assets, for the same soft factors.

As Bullepoint points out, it isn't for on-map assets.

In my present CMFI game, as a US player, I have two 60-mm mortars attached to Co HQ.

I put the mortars behind a ridge, Co HQ on top of the ridge, 20 meters away from both mortars, in voice contact.

If I use the Co HQ to call for indirect fire, delay is 5 minutes.

If I use any platoon HQ to call the same mortars for indirect fire, delay is... 5 minutes. Even platoons from another Co.

 

[chuckdyke]

55 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

I use any platoon HQ to call the same mortars for indirect fire, delay is... 5 minutes. Even platoons from another Co.

 

Always look for the direct fire option(60mm). Use indirect as a last resort. Doesn't make sense using the Off Map FDC if they are in voice contact. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by chuckdyke

[PEB14]

6 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Doesn't make sense using the Off Map FDC if they are in voice contact. 

What do you mean by FDC? Fire Direction Control? "off-map" and "voice contact" seem incompatible to me anyway...

 

6 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Always look for the direct fire option. Use indirect as a last resort.

Agreed.

IMO it has some sense when these mortars are your only "artillery" asset, and thus you want to protect them from enemy fire.

By the way this way to do is taught to the beginner in the CMFI training campaign, in which you're asked to position an observer in a 2-leval building and 60-mm light mortars in the open behind the house, at voice range. And in this scenario the observer is also a HQ.

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, PEB14 said:

What do you mean by FDC? Fire Direction Control? "off-map" and "voice contact" seem incompatible to me anyway...

Need to how they were used in real life. I did for the Soviets all artillery was direct fire or preplanned for indirect. The 60 mm was similar, look for a good defilade position and your own unit can act as spotter. 

The HQ Support Team acted as spotter and they are in voice range. From the defilade position the 60 mm is relatively secure. LOS for mortars is not like the LOS of other infantry units.