Combat Mission Red Thunder Battle Pack 1 pre-orders are now open

[danfrodo]

5 minutes ago, JoMac said:

It's possible that German Units are Green vs Vet Ruskies, or the Ruskies have Intel of German Units ahead of time and reason for getting spotted quicker?

ah, good point JoMac.  I just checked and my german tankers are mix of veteran, regular & green.  I don't know what the russians are, but dang they've been good.  I don't want to add spoilers but I am getting set up nicely for a big bag of payback. 

[Chibot Mk IX]

1 hour ago, danfrodo said:

ah, good point JoMac.  I just checked and my german tankers are mix of veteran, regular & green.  I don't know what the russians are, but dang they've been good.  I don't want to add spoilers but I am getting set up nicely for a big bag of payback. 

feel bad for you. I haven't got a chance to try this one, but felt that sending the panzergrenadiers forward first for the spotting duty should be a better solution. 

[danfrodo]

45 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

feel bad for you. I haven't got a chance to try this one, but felt that sending the panzergrenadiers forward first for the spotting duty should be a better solution. 

yes, you are right!  and yes I did!  And the russians were really well hidden and didn't open up until they had tanks in sight.  Also, I can't see some of the offending russians -- they are hidden in bushes trees but my dismounts can't seem to spot them.  It's a fun challenge and I found a safe passage forward using terrain and with a little pz4 smoke to cover a narrow kill zone. 

And when the T34s opened up I figured I would easily outduel them at that long range.  Nope.

[Chibot Mk IX]

14 hours ago, danfrodo said:

yes, you are right!  and yes I did!  And the russians were really well hidden and didn't open up until they had tanks in sight.  Also, I can't see some of the offending russians -- they are hidden in bushes trees but my dismounts can't seem to spot them.  It's a fun challenge and I found a safe passage forward using terrain and with a little pz4 smoke to cover a narrow kill zone. 

Thanks for the heads up. I got to be extremely cautious when I play this scenario 

 

14 hours ago, danfrodo said:

And when the T34s opened up I figured I would easily outduel them at that long range.  Nope.

Maybe George MC put a bunch of Elite +2 T-34/85 on the map? lol 

Maybe he put recon platoons hiding in some forward position (Soviet recon plt leader has radio). Company CO sit together with Tank Bn CO so any spotting information can be shared with two branches.

 

I played some PBEM involve long range engagement between Pz IV and T-34/85. So I would say, Pz IVs are the underdogs here. 7.5cm kwk40 is a powerful gun in 1943 but in 1944 era it has some problem to penetrate T-34/85’s turret (especially when Soviets tanks are coming in an angle, the AP could hit the side turret armor at a small angle impact).  85mm are as accurate as 88mm at long range. When they hit, your Pz IV is dead.

The long range gun fight in CMx2 WW2 title seems to be too accurate. I remember in CMBB it will usually take 3-5 shots to hit a tank size target at 1000m (initial hit rate range between 25%-33%, then with each shot slowly improves to 70%), in CMx2, it needs only two shots. At 1500m, 3 shots then it begins to hit.  So the long range engagement can be decided in less than one turn. Everything will be over before you have a chance to revise your plan.

My strategy to increase the Pz IV's chance to win is:

Pz IVs park behind the cover, PzG inf move forward, identify the target, share the information with Panzer formation.

ID some keyhole position, or use smoke screen to isolate part of the T-34/85 force. The target is to bring a superior firepower to engage a small portion of T-34/85 at each time

Move PzIV forward, better to have at least 3 IVs to engage one T-34/85.

 

Of course,   it is easy to say than done.

 

[danfrodo]

2 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

Thanks for the heads up. I got to be extremely cautious when I play this scenario 

 

Maybe George MC put a bunch of Elite +2 T-34/85 on the map? lol 

Maybe he put recon platoons hiding in some forward position (Soviet recon plt leader has radio). Company CO sit together with Tank Bn CO so any spotting information can be shared with two branches.

 

I played some PBEM involve long range engagement between Pz IV and T-34/85. So I would say, Pz IVs are the underdogs here. 7.5cm kwk40 is a powerful gun in 1943 but in 1944 era it has some problem to penetrate T-34/85’s turret (especially when Soviets tanks are coming in an angle, the AP could hit the side turret armor at a small angle impact).  85mm are as accurate as 88mm at long range. When they hit, your Pz IV is dead.

The long range gun fight in CMx2 WW2 title seems to be too accurate. I remember in CMBB it will usually take 3-5 shots to hit a tank size target at 1000m (initial hit rate range between 25%-33%, then with each shot slowly improves to 70%), in CMx2, it needs only two shots. At 1500m, 3 shots then it begins to hit.  So the long range engagement can be decided in less than one turn. Everything will be over before you have a chance to revise your plan.

My strategy to increase the Pz IV's chance to win is:

Pz IVs park behind the cover, PzG inf move forward, identify the target, share the information with Panzer formation.

ID some keyhole position, or use smoke screen to isolate part of the T-34/85 force. The target is to bring a superior firepower to engage a small portion of T-34/85 at each time

Move PzIV forward, better to have at least 3 IVs to engage one T-34/85.

 

Of course,   it is easy to say than done.

 

Astute observations, Chibot.  I was hoping my opened up commanders and better optics would get me on target before the T34s could bracket onto me.  I knew I had a lesser gun but was hoping that getting early hits would make up for it.  I was using bushes, hedges, trees as cover but always seemed to get hit before spotting.  It was a very unpleasant surprise. 

So I moved to Plan B (which Elvis says is not as good a Plan A): use terrain & smoke to find safe passage to the critical objectives -- the bridges, and I have secured bridge #1 and part of the big village.  (But lost a few more vehicles to surprises).   Russians do still have the high ground on the flanks but I have the bridges so I am hoping they'll have to come down to get the bridges -- that's a fight I like. 

But we also are facing the constant problem the germans faced in 1944 -- not enough infantry.  I've got to clear a village and w 3 man teams of the recon group it's tough, even though many teams have an mg44.  Russians have lots of their nasty submachine guns which are so deadly at close quarters.  More infantry coming but nothing like what I'd have as americans or russians.  Lots of Pz4s and hannomags.

Executive summary:  THIS IS REALLY DAMN GOOD FUN!!!! 

[George MC]

23 hours ago, JoMac said:

It's possible that German Units are Green vs Vet Ruskies, or the Ruskies have Intel of German Units ahead of time and reason for getting spotted quicker?

Without giving too much away the Soviet tankers you meet are not supermen tankers but two are slightly above average. Though are linked into the Soviet radio net though so reckon your second thought might be whay they have an edge. Also 

POSSIBLE SPOILER highlight to see

There are several Soviet AT gun batteries which in my own playtests killed more stuff than the tanks - though when rounds are incoming it might be hard to tell who is doing the killing.

Cheery!

[George MC]

5 hours ago, danfrodo said:

Astute observations, Chibot.  I was hoping my opened up commanders and better optics would get me on target before the T34s could bracket onto me.  I knew I had a lesser gun but was hoping that getting early hits would make up for it.  I was using bushes, hedges, trees as cover but always seemed to get hit before spotting.  It was a very unpleasant surprise. 

So I moved to Plan B (which Elvis says is not as good a Plan A): use terrain & smoke to find safe passage to the critical objectives -- the bridges, and I have secured bridge #1 and part of the big village.  (But lost a few more vehicles to surprises).   Russians do still have the high ground on the flanks but I have the bridges so I am hoping they'll have to come down to get the bridges -- that's a fight I like. 

But we also are facing the constant problem the germans faced in 1944 -- not enough infantry.  I've got to clear a village and w 3 man teams of the recon group it's tough, even though many teams have an mg44.  Russians have lots of their nasty submachine guns which are so deadly at close quarters.  More infantry coming but nothing like what I'd have as americans or russians.  Lots of Pz4s and hannomags.

Executive summary:  THIS IS REALLY DAMN GOOD FUN!!!! 

I am truly pleased to read your comments - not cos your tanks are burning (well maybe a wee bit... ;)) but that you are enjoying the tactical challenges this scenario poses. Aye they key is to exploit the terrain, and like the Germans in the RL engagement you often have to lose stuff before this becomes very apparent.

Yeah PzIVs versus T-34/85s is not a fair match up for the PzIVs - but it is possible to gain an advantage on the T-34s by outmanoeuvring em. 

Yup mobile infantry was an issue - this is why (3rdPz Div had no SPW battalion at this point as they were still busy being issued new SPW and training) so the recce guys doubled up as panzergrenadiers, but whilst they have lots of tracks not many dudes on the ground and their wee recce teams are not well suited to sustained close combat in urban areas - so treat Rakow with caution. The village is not the prize

I'm really please you are enjoying this. Its one of my personal favourites and it gave myself and several of the testers a real run for our money.

Look forward to hearing how it plays out. Awra best! 

Cheery!

[danfrodo]

26 minutes ago, George MC said:

I am truly pleased to read your comments - not cos your tanks are burning (well maybe a wee bit... ;)) but that you are enjoying the tactical challenges this scenario poses. Aye they key is to exploit the terrain, and like the Germans in the RL engagement you often have to lose stuff before this becomes very apparent.

Yeah PzIVs versus T-34/85s is not a fair match up for the PzIVs - but it is possible to gain an advantage on the T-34s by outmanoeuvring em. 

Yup mobile infantry was an issue - this is why (3rdPz Div had no SPW battalion at this point as they were still busy being issued new SPW and training) so the recce guys doubled up as panzergrenadiers, but whilst they have lots of tracks not many dudes on the ground and their wee recce teams are not well suited to sustained close combat in urban areas - so treat Rakow with caution. The village is not the prize

I'm really please you are enjoying this. Its one of my personal favourites and it gave myself and several of the testers a real run for our money.

Look forward to hearing how it plays out. Awra best! 

Cheery!

you are a devil!  You are laughing at my suffering! 

I hear you on the village not being  the prize, I am definitely not trying to clear it.  RIght now I am trying to decide whether to bypass the town via right turn after the bridge or go thru town.  My hannomag recce did not go well, w two machine gunners down but no heavy weapons hit me yet.  There's noise contact other side of town that sounds like armor -- actually I hope he attacks me at close range w his T34s since I'm outgunned at longer range.  I've got an ambush set up and am hoping he'll walk into it -- if he's coming at all.  But you are a sneaky one so I will probably get some kind of nasty surprise where I don't expect it.

Anyway, thanks much, this is great fun!

[George MC]

14 hours ago, danfrodo said:

you are a devil!  You are laughing at my suffering! 

Not laughing - maybe gentle chortling at my cunning plan working 

14 hours ago, danfrodo said:

But you are a sneaky one so I will probably get some kind of nasty surprise where I don't expect it.

14 hours ago, danfrodo said:

Anyway, thanks much, this is great fun!

Brill - thank you, great to hear, and after all that's a key reason why we play.

I hope!

Cheery!

[danfrodo]

2 hours ago, George MC said:

Not laughing - maybe gentle chortling at my cunning plan working 

Brill - thank you, great to hear, and after all that's a key reason why we play.

I hope!

Cheery!

I gotta be careful not to post any spoilers.  But where the hell is that armor sound contact going????  I think he bypassed my ambush.  Dang it.  He was supposed to stupidly trundle down the street and get hit at 90 degrees by my waiting Pz4s. 

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, danfrodo said:

I gotta be careful not to post any spoilers. 

Thanks, I haven't reached the first bridge yet .

[Ts4EVER]

I finished my playthrough of the Ogledow campaign on Youtube. This is the last installment, with a short review.

 

[Vencini]

Hello, I would like to make some suggestions regardins the first scenario, Lesson 1 SPW scout. Sorry, but I don't know how to spoil it. SPOILER ALERT !

I would like to suggest the possibility of area fire in this scenario, from this higher position towards lower enemy positions, since, currently, the Soviet side sees you and can fire at you (even in hulldown), but the German side does not see them, or you can't make area fire on their positions. 

I think it would be nice to add this option, since the briefing instructions ask you to cross areas with ambushes, obstacles, and mines. Thanks and regards.

[George MC]

On 7/11/2023 at 5:56 PM, Vencini said:

Hello, I would like to make some suggestions regardins the first scenario, Lesson 1 SPW scout. Sorry, but I don't know how to spoil it. SPOILER ALERT !

I would like to suggest the possibility of area fire in this scenario, from this higher position towards lower enemy positions, since, currently, the Soviet side sees you and can fire at you (even in hulldown), but the German side does not see them, or you can't make area fire on their positions. 

I think it would be nice to add this option, since the briefing instructions ask you to cross areas with ambushes, obstacles, and mines. Thanks and regards.

Hi

Thanks for the comment (cool graphic BTW). I’m unclear what you are suggesting?

Donyou mean this should be mentioned in the briefing? As is the actual plan and related course(s) of action is for the player to devise. The briefing only lays out the situation and your mission. 
 

Bit maybe I’m misreading your post?

[chuckdyke]

14 minutes ago, George MC said:

The briefing only lays out the situation and your mission. 

I think it is not always clear to the gamer. I see it as commander's intent. The gamer takes the role of one of the subordinates and is responsible for the execution as he or she sees fit. I think designer's should follow a formula in their briefings to reflect this. 

[George MC]

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

 I think designer's should follow a formula in their briefings to reflect this. 

We do - its called the briefing and the format is set. In this case commander's intent is stated:

"Your parent platoon is tasked to advance west along the road as far as Bridge ‘A’.

Its key tasks are:

To protect following units from ambush/surprise attack. 

To clear any obstacles. 

To break weak resistance. 

Ensure the undisturbed advance of the main body.

Secure Bridge A (OCCUPY - Angr.z WILHELM) no later than 1245Hrs, allowing the main body to pass through its positions and maintaining the tempo of the advance.

Your platoon should ensure it remains operationally viable – taking no more than 10% casualties and remaining at 80% or more combat effective."

You can complete this anyway you like in the scenario. I've seen players approach this in different ways - successfully. that's the point. Maybe I'm missing something here though?

 

[Vencini]

Hello George MC. Thank you for all the effort you have invested in these scenarios. They have a high level of detail, and I think you have achieved a "Gerorge MC hallmark", which sets you apart from other creators. Congratulations !

Regarding this scenario…I have one SPW and one platoon, and I have the option of going through various wooded areas where there could be ambushes, obstacles, or vehicle jams. Mmm…Nope.

Or, I can disembark, scout the area, find good positions from which to observe the target, and protect the perimeter for nine minutes. When my HQ and the rest of the comrades arrive, I will report the situation (pass C2) and we will make a decision. I prefer this one. 

So, I embark three tank hunter teams (Panzerfaust), with the HQ in his SPW, and follow the yellow line (I'd get to hit two targets while doing this), and I can “safely” do this move because I have about six automatic weapons, and about nine rifles supporting the movement. In addition, there are the MGs of the 3 SPW.

Common sense tells you that high ground, hull down, and a good base of fire is a winning combination for manoeuvring, but I find to my annoyance that enemy anti-tank rifles destroy my 3 SPWs in a minute (and even they hurt soldiers), appearing and disappearing on target (they appear when they fire), and that I can't do area fire on their positions.

They can fire at me, but I can’t fire on them. I know that you have to give the IA some advantage by using the terrain, but in this case, I understand that the message is "using the potentially most dangerous route is the right thing to do" and "the rest of the options are wrong".

Please don't give the IA so much terrain advantage. I am playing more games, and I would like to comment here my doubts and opinions. Thanks for your work and regards.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Vencini
Can't post images

[Brille]

@Vencini: I played the scenario/training mission and I found it not that big of a problem.

If I remember correctly the ATR are positioned behind a hedge right? 

You don't have to area fire directly on their position, just slightly in front of them. 

The rounds will fly in a straight line and will have an effect on them too. At least this much that you can get closer with your grenadiers and finish them of. 

The half tracks have plenty of ammo, so give it to the soviets. 

And better mass your halftracks, so the possibility of spotting a target rises. I wouldn't bother that mutch about hull down positions in this instance. They don't offer that much of an advantage than you might think. 

Get to know where the ATR are, rush into fire positions with your HT and area fire slightly before them. 

Or maybe you can even target a building behind them, that is almost at their height level. Passing rounds will affect them too. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Brille

[PEB14]

I had another approach.

I'm requested "to protect following units from ambush/surprise attack", so I cleared the roads and woods with infantry using haltracks as cover. The,n I moved my haltrack in hulldown position to cover the infantry progress towards the farm (both from the front and the right flank). I didn't attack nor scouted the left flank.

I miserably failed the first time, due to a combination of poorly coordinated infantry movements, too hasty movements and bad luck in spotting, but I achieved all objectives with this strategy at the second attempt.

[Vencini]

Lesson 2 SPW second scout mission battlepack

Beautiful map, excellent attention to detail. I played about 20 turns.

- They give you points for reaching objectives, and identifying units.

- I looked for good positions in hull down, with visibility between 800 and 1100 meters deep on the map. We did not locate any unit in those 20 minutes.

- I used an SPW to transport half a platoon as vehicle protection, and the engineering team to reach objectives. Another SPW giving covering fire so that he could break through the enemy line.

- I arrive at an objective, they discover me near the other, there are 40 minutes left, and there is no need to return to any exiting area.

- I press ceasefire and get a draw... I have the feeling that the quality of the map, and the objectives of the mission, are unbalanced...     Thanks and regards !

Edited July 13, 2023 by Vencini
Error

[George MC]

10 hours ago, Vencini said:

Lesson 2 SPW second scout mission battlepack

Beautiful map, excellent attention to detail. I played about 20 turns.

- I press ceasefire and get a draw... I have the feeling that the quality of the map, and the objectives of the mission, are unbalanced...     Thanks and regards !
 

Thanks for this. 

 

re the result - I think you are perhaps missing the point of these missions. They are training lessons - designed to enable the player to explore and try out RL tactics, within the restraints and idiosyncrasies of the Combat Mission game engine.

In this case a result of a draw is fine. Keep in mind players completing this will often score a victory of some level. So yeah you can cease fire however long in, and as long as you suffer no casualties you'll at least get a draw. But the outcome of this is you have learned nothing regarding using SPWs, support and dismounts to conduct aa tactical recce. Thats the point of this mission.

Like I totally appreciate you posting comments and your excellent graphics but what i would ask is being cool regarding spoilers. Both post have given a potential player a heads up as to what is there. For some (many/most) this breaks the Fog of War and the immersion factor. Could I politely ask if you intend posting possible spoilers re a mission a/ create a separate post and b/ put the spoiler info behind a warning. that way players can choose whether they wish to read the post (and uncover spoilers) or leave alone till they play it. Like its brill to hear your thoughts and see your playthroughs so hope you continue doing that, just mind the possible spoiler bit please?

Many thanks

[George MC]

This video might be of interest to thsoe who have purchased the battle pack (thank you!) which showcases content from the Combat Mission Red Thunder Battlepack 1 released by Battlefront.com. There are NO spoilers in the video chapters below.