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[danfrodo]

5 minutes ago, JoMac said:

It's possible that German Units are Green vs Vet Ruskies, or the Ruskies have Intel of German Units ahead of time and reason for getting spotted quicker?

ah, good point JoMac.  I just checked and my german tankers are mix of veteran, regular & green.  I don't know what the russians are, but dang they've been good.  I don't want to add spoilers but I am getting set up nicely for a big bag of payback. 

[Chibot Mk IX]

1 hour ago, danfrodo said:

ah, good point JoMac.  I just checked and my german tankers are mix of veteran, regular & green.  I don't know what the russians are, but dang they've been good.  I don't want to add spoilers but I am getting set up nicely for a big bag of payback. 

feel bad for you. I haven't got a chance to try this one, but felt that sending the panzergrenadiers forward first for the spotting duty should be a better solution. 

[danfrodo]

45 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

feel bad for you. I haven't got a chance to try this one, but felt that sending the panzergrenadiers forward first for the spotting duty should be a better solution. 

yes, you are right!  and yes I did!  And the russians were really well hidden and didn't open up until they had tanks in sight.  Also, I can't see some of the offending russians -- they are hidden in bushes trees but my dismounts can't seem to spot them.  It's a fun challenge and I found a safe passage forward using terrain and with a little pz4 smoke to cover a narrow kill zone. 

And when the T34s opened up I figured I would easily outduel them at that long range.  Nope.

[Chibot Mk IX]

14 hours ago, danfrodo said:

yes, you are right!  and yes I did!  And the russians were really well hidden and didn't open up until they had tanks in sight.  Also, I can't see some of the offending russians -- they are hidden in bushes trees but my dismounts can't seem to spot them.  It's a fun challenge and I found a safe passage forward using terrain and with a little pz4 smoke to cover a narrow kill zone. 

Thanks for the heads up. I got to be extremely cautious when I play this scenario 

 

14 hours ago, danfrodo said:

And when the T34s opened up I figured I would easily outduel them at that long range.  Nope.

Maybe George MC put a bunch of Elite +2 T-34/85 on the map? lol 

Maybe he put recon platoons hiding in some forward position (Soviet recon plt leader has radio). Company CO sit together with Tank Bn CO so any spotting information can be shared with two branches.

 

I played some PBEM involve long range engagement between Pz IV and T-34/85. So I would say, Pz IVs are the underdogs here. 7.5cm kwk40 is a powerful gun in 1943 but in 1944 era it has some problem to penetrate T-34/85’s turret (especially when Soviets tanks are coming in an angle, the AP could hit the side turret armor at a small angle impact).  85mm are as accurate as 88mm at long range. When they hit, your Pz IV is dead.

The long range gun fight in CMx2 WW2 title seems to be too accurate. I remember in CMBB it will usually take 3-5 shots to hit a tank size target at 1000m (initial hit rate range between 25%-33%, then with each shot slowly improves to 70%), in CMx2, it needs only two shots. At 1500m, 3 shots then it begins to hit.  So the long range engagement can be decided in less than one turn. Everything will be over before you have a chance to revise your plan.

My strategy to increase the Pz IV's chance to win is:

Pz IVs park behind the cover, PzG inf move forward, identify the target, share the information with Panzer formation.

ID some keyhole position, or use smoke screen to isolate part of the T-34/85 force. The target is to bring a superior firepower to engage a small portion of T-34/85 at each time

Move PzIV forward, better to have at least 3 IVs to engage one T-34/85.

 

Of course,   it is easy to say than done.

 

[danfrodo]

2 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

Thanks for the heads up. I got to be extremely cautious when I play this scenario 

 

Maybe George MC put a bunch of Elite +2 T-34/85 on the map? lol 

Maybe he put recon platoons hiding in some forward position (Soviet recon plt leader has radio). Company CO sit together with Tank Bn CO so any spotting information can be shared with two branches.

 

I played some PBEM involve long range engagement between Pz IV and T-34/85. So I would say, Pz IVs are the underdogs here. 7.5cm kwk40 is a powerful gun in 1943 but in 1944 era it has some problem to penetrate T-34/85’s turret (especially when Soviets tanks are coming in an angle, the AP could hit the side turret armor at a small angle impact).  85mm are as accurate as 88mm at long range. When they hit, your Pz IV is dead.

The long range gun fight in CMx2 WW2 title seems to be too accurate. I remember in CMBB it will usually take 3-5 shots to hit a tank size target at 1000m (initial hit rate range between 25%-33%, then with each shot slowly improves to 70%), in CMx2, it needs only two shots. At 1500m, 3 shots then it begins to hit.  So the long range engagement can be decided in less than one turn. Everything will be over before you have a chance to revise your plan.

My strategy to increase the Pz IV's chance to win is:

Pz IVs park behind the cover, PzG inf move forward, identify the target, share the information with Panzer formation.

ID some keyhole position, or use smoke screen to isolate part of the T-34/85 force. The target is to bring a superior firepower to engage a small portion of T-34/85 at each time

Move PzIV forward, better to have at least 3 IVs to engage one T-34/85.

 

Of course,   it is easy to say than done.

 

Astute observations, Chibot.  I was hoping my opened up commanders and better optics would get me on target before the T34s could bracket onto me.  I knew I had a lesser gun but was hoping that getting early hits would make up for it.  I was using bushes, hedges, trees as cover but always seemed to get hit before spotting.  It was a very unpleasant surprise. 

So I moved to Plan B (which Elvis says is not as good a Plan A): use terrain & smoke to find safe passage to the critical objectives -- the bridges, and I have secured bridge #1 and part of the big village.  (But lost a few more vehicles to surprises).   Russians do still have the high ground on the flanks but I have the bridges so I am hoping they'll have to come down to get the bridges -- that's a fight I like. 

But we also are facing the constant problem the germans faced in 1944 -- not enough infantry.  I've got to clear a village and w 3 man teams of the recon group it's tough, even though many teams have an mg44.  Russians have lots of their nasty submachine guns which are so deadly at close quarters.  More infantry coming but nothing like what I'd have as americans or russians.  Lots of Pz4s and hannomags.

Executive summary:  THIS IS REALLY DAMN GOOD FUN!!!! 

[George MC]

23 hours ago, JoMac said:

It's possible that German Units are Green vs Vet Ruskies, or the Ruskies have Intel of German Units ahead of time and reason for getting spotted quicker?

Without giving too much away the Soviet tankers you meet are not supermen tankers but two are slightly above average. Though are linked into the Soviet radio net though so reckon your second thought might be whay they have an edge. Also 

POSSIBLE SPOILER highlight to see

There are several Soviet AT gun batteries which in my own playtests killed more stuff than the tanks - though when rounds are incoming it might be hard to tell who is doing the killing.

Cheery!

[George MC]

5 hours ago, danfrodo said:

Astute observations, Chibot.  I was hoping my opened up commanders and better optics would get me on target before the T34s could bracket onto me.  I knew I had a lesser gun but was hoping that getting early hits would make up for it.  I was using bushes, hedges, trees as cover but always seemed to get hit before spotting.  It was a very unpleasant surprise. 

So I moved to Plan B (which Elvis says is not as good a Plan A): use terrain & smoke to find safe passage to the critical objectives -- the bridges, and I have secured bridge #1 and part of the big village.  (But lost a few more vehicles to surprises).   Russians do still have the high ground on the flanks but I have the bridges so I am hoping they'll have to come down to get the bridges -- that's a fight I like. 

But we also are facing the constant problem the germans faced in 1944 -- not enough infantry.  I've got to clear a village and w 3 man teams of the recon group it's tough, even though many teams have an mg44.  Russians have lots of their nasty submachine guns which are so deadly at close quarters.  More infantry coming but nothing like what I'd have as americans or russians.  Lots of Pz4s and hannomags.

Executive summary:  THIS IS REALLY DAMN GOOD FUN!!!! 

I am truly pleased to read your comments - not cos your tanks are burning (well maybe a wee bit... ;)) but that you are enjoying the tactical challenges this scenario poses. Aye they key is to exploit the terrain, and like the Germans in the RL engagement you often have to lose stuff before this becomes very apparent.

Yeah PzIVs versus T-34/85s is not a fair match up for the PzIVs - but it is possible to gain an advantage on the T-34s by outmanoeuvring em. 

Yup mobile infantry was an issue - this is why (3rdPz Div had no SPW battalion at this point as they were still busy being issued new SPW and training) so the recce guys doubled up as panzergrenadiers, but whilst they have lots of tracks not many dudes on the ground and their wee recce teams are not well suited to sustained close combat in urban areas - so treat Rakow with caution. The village is not the prize

I'm really please you are enjoying this. Its one of my personal favourites and it gave myself and several of the testers a real run for our money.

Look forward to hearing how it plays out. Awra best! 

Cheery!

[danfrodo]

26 minutes ago, George MC said:

I am truly pleased to read your comments - not cos your tanks are burning (well maybe a wee bit... ;)) but that you are enjoying the tactical challenges this scenario poses. Aye they key is to exploit the terrain, and like the Germans in the RL engagement you often have to lose stuff before this becomes very apparent.

Yeah PzIVs versus T-34/85s is not a fair match up for the PzIVs - but it is possible to gain an advantage on the T-34s by outmanoeuvring em. 

Yup mobile infantry was an issue - this is why (3rdPz Div had no SPW battalion at this point as they were still busy being issued new SPW and training) so the recce guys doubled up as panzergrenadiers, but whilst they have lots of tracks not many dudes on the ground and their wee recce teams are not well suited to sustained close combat in urban areas - so treat Rakow with caution. The village is not the prize

I'm really please you are enjoying this. Its one of my personal favourites and it gave myself and several of the testers a real run for our money.

Look forward to hearing how it plays out. Awra best! 

Cheery!

you are a devil!  You are laughing at my suffering! 

I hear you on the village not being  the prize, I am definitely not trying to clear it.  RIght now I am trying to decide whether to bypass the town via right turn after the bridge or go thru town.  My hannomag recce did not go well, w two machine gunners down but no heavy weapons hit me yet.  There's noise contact other side of town that sounds like armor -- actually I hope he attacks me at close range w his T34s since I'm outgunned at longer range.  I've got an ambush set up and am hoping he'll walk into it -- if he's coming at all.  But you are a sneaky one so I will probably get some kind of nasty surprise where I don't expect it.

Anyway, thanks much, this is great fun!

[George MC]

14 hours ago, danfrodo said:

you are a devil!  You are laughing at my suffering! 

Not laughing - maybe gentle chortling at my cunning plan working 

14 hours ago, danfrodo said:

But you are a sneaky one so I will probably get some kind of nasty surprise where I don't expect it.

14 hours ago, danfrodo said:

Anyway, thanks much, this is great fun!

Brill - thank you, great to hear, and after all that's a key reason why we play.

I hope!

Cheery!

[danfrodo]

2 hours ago, George MC said:

Not laughing - maybe gentle chortling at my cunning plan working 

Brill - thank you, great to hear, and after all that's a key reason why we play.

I hope!

Cheery!

I gotta be careful not to post any spoilers.  But where the hell is that armor sound contact going????  I think he bypassed my ambush.  Dang it.  He was supposed to stupidly trundle down the street and get hit at 90 degrees by my waiting Pz4s. 

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, danfrodo said:

I gotta be careful not to post any spoilers. 

Thanks, I haven't reached the first bridge yet .

[Ts4EVER]

I finished my playthrough of the Ogledow campaign on Youtube. This is the last installment, with a short review.