I think weapon mounts are generally too vulnerable in the game - this time for a Sherman Jumbo

[Bulletpoint]

Here's an Assault Sherman ("Jumbo") that I knocked out with a Panther at 260m range.

As you see, nearly all shots bounced off the thick armour, but to my surprise, I got a penetration next to the barrel.

 

Since I assume this is a solid block of metal, I don't see how the shot would go through at this particular point.

Searching for some info online, I came across this pic of an Assault Sherman that was hit in this exact spot. This time by an 88. The shot didn't go through.

 

I know of course that whether a shot penetrates depends on a lot of variables, so I'm not saying this is definitive proof that the game got it wrong.

What I am saying is that this pic shows the cylinder around the gun barrel seems to be a very thick solid block of steel and not a weak point. (The actual shot that killed the Jumbo in this photo was one that hit the gunner's periscope, marked "9").

After playing the game for nearly 10 years, I've noticed many cases of tanks getting knocked out by hits on their 'weapon mount', and this is just one example.

So I'm saying it's possible this is a part of the tank armour that is somehow undermodelled by the game.

[Warts 'n' all]

Interesting comparison. Do you know when and where the "Jumbo" photo was taken?

[Bulletpoint]

3 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Interesting comparison. Do you know when and where the "Jumbo" photo was taken?

 

This Jumbo of 743rd Tank Battalion was knocked out on 22nd November 1944 near Lohn, Germany. It was hit by four 88 mm rounds from an anti-tank gun 800 yds (730 m) away. One bounced off the glacis plate and two off the manlet before the fourth actually penetrated through the gunners telescope opening (chalked ‘9’ by Divisional Intelligence staff).

 

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/us/m4a3e2-jumbo-assault-tank

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

Just out of curiosity I looked up where Lohn is, but couldn't find it on a map. Is it Lohne or Löhne? I thought to myself. But the geographical position didn't made much sense to me for 1944. Then I discovered Lohn (Eschweiler) and immediately knew.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohn_(Eschweiler)

The town just got eradicated for lignite mining.

[snarre]

could this have somthing similar whit stug 3  gun manttel problem too ? 

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, snarre said:

could this have somthing similar whit stug 3  gun manttel problem too ? 

It's possible. I've also noticed that the Stug 3 mantle seems (too?) vulnerable, but I am not qualified to say if it's realistic or not.

On the forums, I've read that "curved" cast armour doesn't always work well in this engine, but I thought the Jumbo Sherman example was interesting because the part is not curved.

[AlexUK]

Yes, I have the impression Stug mantles are too vulnerable too. Often see penetrations there. Seems dubious to me. I thought the mantle was effectively up-armoured on the Stug, plus there is more of an angle for deflection.

[transporter]

One of the scenarios I played I had 3 jumbos knocked out by panthers at ranges of 500m+  In each instance the round penetrated the mantlet.   I thought the mantlet on the jumbos was thick enough to withstand that.

[markus544]

On a slightly different subject. In CM games a while back I posted that the tank commanders (WW2) seem to very vulnerable to small arms fire. It seems to me to be lopped sided. Almost always the tank commander gets picked off. Watched a you tube video the other day. What they talked about was a tank commander in allied camp operating from a open hatch. Where the Soviet forces kept buttoned up. In built up urban areas I get it even with infantry in close support the tank commander makes a juicy target. But, out in the countryside? I was just wondering if the game engine is somewhat off as far as the frequency of my Wardaddy's getting smoked every time it seems to me.

[Bulletpoint]

46 minutes ago, markus544 said:

On a slightly different subject.

I agree with you, but I think more people would see your post if you made your own thread about this. It's already been discussed extensively though.

[IICptMillerII]

On 7/19/2022 at 6:53 AM, Bulletpoint said:

Here's an Assault Sherman ("Jumbo") that I knocked out with a Panther at 260m range.

As you see, nearly all shots bounced off the thick armour, but to my surprise, I got a penetration next to the barrel.

 

Since I assume this is a solid block of metal, I don't see how the shot would go through at this particular point.

Searching for some info online, I came across this pic of an Assault Sherman that was hit in this exact spot. This time by an 88. The shot didn't go through.

 

I know of course that whether a shot penetrates depends on a lot of variables, so I'm not saying this is definitive proof that the game got it wrong.

What I am saying is that this pic shows the cylinder around the gun barrel seems to be a very thick solid block of steel and not a weak point. (The actual shot that killed the Jumbo in this photo was one that hit the gunner's periscope, marked "9").

After playing the game for nearly 10 years, I've noticed many cases of tanks getting knocked out by hits on their 'weapon mount', and this is just one example.

So I'm saying it's possible this is a part of the tank armour that is somehow undermodelled by the game.

I tend to agree with you here. Hits to the gun mount seem to happen a lot in all CM titles, and even with things like (not top down attack) ATGMs. I threw a quick test together back when CM Cold War was in alpha still and the small test was inconclusive, but it was by no means comprehensive. 

[JulianJ]

In one of the books I read during lockdown - a tank commander memoir (Brit Normandy) can't remember what it was titled, he said that you didn't stick your head out all the time, but bobbed up and down so sniper didn't have a chance to get a good bead on you but you got the situational awareness of having your head up.

I also agree that the Sherman Jumbo and StuG III Saukopf mantlets ought to be hard to penetrate. Both are a lot of metal to go through and the Saukopf is going to deflect a lot of shots.