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Still mucking around with the 2nd Battle of Chaumont as the US. Have been roughly holding my own at the 42 minute mark and then this happened: As best as I can tell a German tank sent a few HE rounds into a building with some US machine guns and infantry. They promptly began moving right into the attacking Germans! I saw that they were tired and rattled, but am I missing something here? Wouldn't rattled units retreat AWAY from the enemy?  Then several US halftracks, all hidden and OK, moved towards the German positions as well! Suffice to say they were shot up too. Boy oh boy! Just as I was starting to get used to the interface and enjoying this game, this happened! 

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23 minutes ago, kb6583 said:

They promptly began moving right into the attacking Germans!

You need to post some screenshots. I saw that 2 platoons have a minus (-1) in leadership. Rattled is one step away from panic and shaken. The additional combat stress was the straw which broke the camel's back. Doing your METT-TC one of the Ts stands for troops on hand. Troops with a minus break easily especially when their leader also has a minus. Rattled temporarily go into panic or shaken when they experience combat stress if they don't suffer additional casualties they will recover back to being rattled. Suffering casualties will slowly take away their will to fight, Troops with a plus keep their fighting spirit longer. Out of your three platoons I see you have only one platoon leader with a plus1 in leadership. 

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14 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

What I know I know from somebody else.

 

Thanks you to yours very interresting videos and comments also detailled explanations about squads and hq, and principaly about yours others videos and the way to play in Wego unstead real time...

Also yours videos about Gravietiem I like also very much this one with wonderful animations and effects but for the time too difficults to manage the incredibles everywhere Icons if Grav and Batt can working together this will be an incredible result...

more of this !

 

JM

Edited by JM Stuff
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6 hours ago, Artkin said:

It's still very prevalent in CMBN. Can't speak for this game in particular.

Hedgerows are absolutely cursed geometry in CMBN, sometimes it's hard to go a single turn without getting a squad strung out across half the map because some pixeltruppen got stuck moving through a hedgerow, along with other weirdness. 

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19 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

What I know I know from somebody else.

 

Very good video - thank you for posting it. However, unlike my recent experience, the infantry squad you show as it transitioned through the various negative states of unreadiness STILL MOVED AWAY FROM THE SOURCE OF FIRE! My platoon MOVED right into the Germans and was naturally slaughtered! Then there are still the the wandering halftracks, which were well hidden behind cover and had "OK" morale, which also took off right into the Germans. Since I had very recently purchased Final Blitzkrieg, the game is fully up to date. Very, very frustrating. When I put this together with on-map mortars which won't respond to indirect fire requests even though they appeared to meet the game parameters, I confess to a degree of frustration which is sapping any enjoyment I may have acquired since purchasing this game.

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9 minutes ago, Codreanu said:

Hedgerows are absolutely cursed geometry in CMBN, sometimes it's hard to go a single turn without getting a squad strung out across half the map because some pixeltruppen got stuck moving through a hedgerow, along with other weirdness. 

Yep playing a 2v2 right now and I've had teams fiddling in the back lines trying to regroup at hedgerow openings. Its a couple guys sure but I lose track of my formations because the icons are further back to adjust

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4 hours ago, kb6583 said:

My platoon MOVED right into the Germans

You may spot the Germans on the screen but the pixeltruppen don't. I they are in temporary panic mode they can run anywhere. Even if everything is ok they do funny things. Like using the front door while I plotted the rear door. Your hedgerows (bridges too) is another matter you need to be careful how you plot waypoints. Formations can split automatically and won't merge sometimes. Experience is the best teacher. On map mortars have a good look at the munitions they have. If you plot indirect the communications go through the off-map fire direction centre. The game doesn't distinguish between LOF and LOS you may have an LOS but not a LOF. If you have your mortar behind a building, you may not meet the LOF parameters of its trajectory. Also read the recommendation of the designer or it is better to attack or defend. I think the 2nd round of Chaumont is better played as Germans while the first game as Americans. I rarely play defender against the AI Hotseat is our preference. However, in the 2 games the 60 mm mortar is best employed in the direct fire mode from an enfilade position. Just behind a crest or an elevation of the terrain. 

Edited by chuckdyke
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20 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

You may spot the Germans on the screen but the pixeltruppen don't. I they are in temporary panic mode they can run anywhere. Even if everything is ok they do funny things. Like using the front door while I plotted the rear door. Your hedgerows (bridges too) is another matter you need to be careful how you plot waypoints. Formations can split automatically and won't merge sometimes. Experience is the best teacher. On map mortars have a good look at the munitions they have. If you plot indirect the communications go through the off-map fire direction centre. The game doesn't distinguish between LOF and LOS you may have an LOS but not a LOF. If you have your mortar behind a building, you may not meet the LOF parameters of its trajectory. Also read the recommendation of the designer or it is better to attack or defend. I think the 2nd round of Chaumont is better played as Germans while the first game as Americans. I rarely play defender against the AI Hotseat is our preference. However, in the 2 games the 60 mm mortar is best employed in the direct fire mode from an enfilade position. Just behind a crest or an elevation of the terrain. 

Chuckdyke, Thank you for that cogent explanation - it's brought me back down from a high hover. That said, in reading between the lines, "...the 2nd round of Chaumont is better played as Germans" I take to mean this scenario is unwinnable playing the US. As is trying to play the Germans in the 1st round.

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3 hours ago, kb6583 said:

I take to mean this scenario is unwinnable playing the US.

Ignoring the fact that the answer to "What's going on", has always been "Marvin Gaye, 1971". The fact that someone as rubbish as me can get a Major Victory with KIA - 20, WIA - 25, Tanks - 6,  AFV - 1, would be a fair indication that this battle is not "unwinnable" when playing as the USatians.

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2 hours ago, kb6583 said:

I take to mean this scenario is unwinnable playing the US.

I just read the scenario it says Axis Assault best played as Axis against US or H&H. It means the defending US forces will have plenty of triggers in the set up as it is supposed to defend. Once you become experienced you will discover that the AI is a poor attacker. I can tell you why, but I don't want to spoil your fun. I still think you need to take more notice of your combat stress and combat shock factors. Nervous and lower they won't follow your orders properly; shaken and panic they won't follow them all. Better play this scenario as attacker or play against a human if you want to defend. Feel free to defend as US but it is not optimal for this scenario. Assault means the attacker has more numbers and also often more intel. But the designer has possibly made fewer AI triggers for the attacking force. For a unit to engage in combat you need to make a careful selection. 

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On 7/2/2022 at 8:11 PM, Codreanu said:

Hedgerows are absolutely cursed geometry in CMBN, sometimes it's hard to go a single turn without getting a squad strung out across half the map because some pixeltruppen got stuck moving through a hedgerow, along with other weirdness. 

Sadly, this is something that should have been fixed 7 or 8 years ago, before BFC even moved on to Engine 3. But, they couldn't be derriered The introduction of having "Squads" spreading out further, and giving them the ability to peek around buildings which came with Engine 4 just made the hedgerow problem worse. Now they don't just have problems moving through the gaps in hedgerows, they also have trouble moving straight along aside them. Ho hum.

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On 7/2/2022 at 8:45 AM, Artkin said:

It's still very prevalent in CMBN. Can't speak for this game in particular.

If this is true and you have the latest patch applied, please provide some specific details and saved games so that it can be reproduced. This charging the enemy through hedgerows instead of retreating was "fixed" with the newest patches. It was pretty thoroughly tested on a number of scenarios that had always had problems, and also the beginning of the Scottish Corridor campaign (Germans including AT gun crews had a bad habit of charging into the open under fire). It had showed up in FR as well, and the behavior was changed much for the better. I don't recall ever seeing it in FB but the same fix was added across all the titles.

If there is still a problem, AND it shows in games with the latest patch applied, then please provide details. 

Dave

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40 minutes ago, Ultradave said:

If this is true and you have the latest patch applied, please provide some specific details and saved games so that it can be reproduced. This charging the enemy through hedgerows instead of retreating was "fixed" with the newest patches. It was pretty thoroughly tested on a number of scenarios that had always had problems, and also the beginning of the Scottish Corridor campaign (Germans including AT gun crews had a bad habit of charging into the open under fire). It had showed up in FR as well, and the behavior was changed much for the better. I don't recall ever seeing it in FB but the same fix was added across all the titles.

If there is still a problem, AND it shows in games with the latest patch applied, then please provide details. 

Dave

Yeah so it was my opponent's troops. He is playing as the Germans and the teams that ran into the open were HMG teams. I have never noticed the activity on any game except CMBN. I am digging up turns now, already found one, but I will let my opponent contact you since we are still playing our game.

Edited by Artkin
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20 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

What I found with hedges is put a waypoint just before a 'mousehole' before proceeding through it. The unit will assemble in close proximity at a waypoint before moving through it. The same applies for foot bridges. 

Always a good idea. May not work every time though?  I will of course continue to experiment, particularly as @Ultradave and I are doing this sort of thing just now... 

Any thoughts on whether light infantry can go through a gap but perhaps not an HMG squad?  @Artkin's post above suggests HMG crews are happy to charge through a gap...

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1 hour ago, Vacillator said:

Always a good idea. May not work every time though?  I will of course continue to experiment, particularly as @Ultradave and I are doing this sort of thing just now... 

Any thoughts on whether light infantry can go through a gap but perhaps not an HMG squad?  @Artkin's post above suggests HMG crews are happy to charge through a gap...

Yes, our current game has a LOT of hedgerows and a lot of small arms and MG fire going through 2 hedgerow sides (so far). But the comment was on FB and I've not even heard of this happening there. Of course I hadn't in RT until it happened to the opposing Russians testing the FR German campaign.

Dave

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21 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

What I found with hedges is put a waypoint just before a 'mousehole' before proceeding through it. The unit will assemble in close proximity at a waypoint before moving through it. The same applies for foot bridges. 

This usually works, but sometimes you have to set waypoints on both sides of an offending hedgerow to free up the stuck soldier first

Edited by Artkin
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WimO's maps (Known as Kandu on FGM) are perfect for troubleshooting pathfinding issues in extremely dense hedgerow if that interests you two. I am playing a 2v2 right now and we are experiencing a few pathfinding issues, I have solved all mine though, as well as picking up all of my dead. But that micromanaging is just for crazy people anyway

Edited by Artkin
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2 hours ago, Vacillator said:

Always a good idea. May not work every time though? 

Little footbridge at counterattack at Son BN Market Garden. Last time I encountered the problem. Solution was cross the bridge one platoon at the time Assembly (Waypoint) just before the bridge and a waypoint just once across the bridge. No problems with the hedges in that scenario but I used the same solution. Suggestion for the designers, instead of a footbridge just make a deep wading crossing. The Dommel River in that part has a maximum depth of 1.5mtrs. 

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For everyone else's info, I've submitted a bug report based on the saved games that Artkin provided for a CMBN game. There are two instances of German units bolting from hedgerow cover towards the enemy. One of those could be an odd case where the unit is taking fire through the hedge but is also about to be flanked on its right, but the other is clearly wrong. Proper behavior for the second one would be to cover/cower behind the hedge. Morale of these units was ok. They are Regular troops and were only "cautious" when they ran into the open.

It's possible that Charles has done as much as he can, and that we may have to live with a few isolated instances. We'll just have to see. 

Thanks to @Artkin for providing good examples in saved game files. This makes troubleshooting bugs so much easier.

Dave

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