Kinophile Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 4 minutes ago, Grigb said: UKR test prototype of individual solder multishot anti-FVP weapon I'd be glad for something last ditch like that. Anything. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 10 minutes ago, Grigb said: UKR test prototype of individual solder multishot anti-FVP weapon At this point better than nothing I suppose. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinophile Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 30 minutes ago, The_Capt said: At this point better than nothing I suppose. Certainly for the contact based munitions, although close enough and you'd set it off anyway? But there's plenty of vids where these could have saved people. Several people shooting these at an approaching FPV would do something. Edited February 23 by Kinophile 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinophile Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 UK MOD does seem to be paying close attention. UK launches military drone strategy backed by $5.7 billion funding and Ukraine analysis. Breaking Defence 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 49 minutes ago, Grigb said: UKR test prototype of individual solder multishot anti-FVP weapon This solves the biggest problem seen with shotguns... size. Every soldier needs the ability to take out a drone, but you can't give every guy a shotgun. Having one soldier within a platoon may help with the logistics, however the reality of how dispersed units are this isn't practical. This thing is small enough that a unit on the defensive could easily have a couple of crates of them to hand out. Looks light and compact enough that each soldier could carry one. Yes, more weight for the poor bastards to tote around, but desperate times call for desperate measures. And with Ukraine being on the defensive for the next year it's less of an issue since soldiers will mostly fight from prepared positions where everything doesn't have to be carried 100% of the time. I hope this proves effective and can get out there in large numbers quickly. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinophile Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) Edited February 23 by Kinophile 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 15 minutes ago, Kinophile said: Certainly for the contact based munitions, although close enough and you'd set it off anyway? But there's plenty of vids where these could have saved people. Several people shooting these at an approaching FPV would do something. I cringe at a bunch of soldiers blasting away at the sky when everyone has to whisper to avoid getting picked up. Troops are going to get spooked and start shooting at birds and bats, so fire discipline will be an issue. New ammo and sustainment requirements are also an issue. But as you note...gotta give em something if for morale alone. Some sort of PD weapon. I think a fragmenting round from their existing weapons would have been a better way to go but that is likely an industrial production problem. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grigb Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 6 minutes ago, The_Capt said: At this point better than nothing I suppose. Well, let's look at the data we have. FPV attack on a RU soldier RU comment Quote I have frequently said that if there is visual contact with the FPV and you know where it is flying [and] what the operator sees, you can fool it. The operator has significantly less reaction time, and the reaction itself is slowed down. Escape from the FPV is simpler in an open place with room for maneuvering and sight than in a house or a dugout. Another FPV attack on a RU soldier 00:05 start of first attack 00:15 before RU soldiers quickly moves out of the way 00:16-00:18 view from another drone - RU soldeir quickly moves away, UKR operator of the first drone decides to abort attempt and pulls drone up 00:19 UKR operator dive down again RU soldier quickly moves to a different direction 00:20 UKR drone misses RU soldier and hits ground nearby. A soldier is wounded in leg and hand (not criticaly) and survives. Interesting description of the whole attack: First drone hit other target - a group of troops nearby (on video from 00:00 to 00:04) reported damage, one died The soldier was wounded by a second drone between 00:04 and 00:20The third drone fell nearby, quote "flew round and then fell... simply fell nearby" The fourth drone exploded near the car where the solder was placed, "glass got broken...we waited for the driver and then left" Cheap mass-produced FPV drones aren't as quick or nimble as many thinks. Attacks using these low-cost drones are not as effective or devastating as many imagine. Finally, the prototype was evaluated by a Ukrainian FPV operator, who stated that the army should be armed with them. it is not 100% protection, but it is definitely more effective than people think. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimbosbread Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 10 minutes ago, The_Capt said: I cringe at a bunch of soldiers blasting away at the sky when everyone has to whisper to avoid getting picked up. Troops are going to get spooked and start shooting at birds and bats, so fire discipline will be an issue. New ammo and sustainment requirements are also an issue. But as you note...gotta give em something if for morale alone. Some sort of PD weapon. I think a fragmenting round from their existing weapons would have been a better way to go but that is likely an industrial production problem. Also, if this works even 25% of the time, it points in a good direction for FPV point defence on the cheap: A little unmanned shotgun turret with a camera and microphone on it, essentially. Hobbyists have built unmanned turrets a decade ago at least that could easily track people, so if the turret is cheap enough (a few thousand, so similar order of magnitude to an FPV drone) and has a 50% success rate, that’s not bad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbindc Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 22 minutes ago, The_Capt said: I cringe at a bunch of soldiers blasting away at the sky when everyone has to whisper to avoid getting picked up. Troops are going to get spooked and start shooting at birds and bats, so fire discipline will be an issue. New ammo and sustainment requirements are also an issue. But as you note...gotta give em something if for morale alone. Some sort of PD weapon. I think a fragmenting round from their existing weapons would have been a better way to go but that is likely an industrial production problem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 5 minutes ago, Grigb said: Well, let's look at the data we have. FPV attack on a RU soldier RU comment Another FPV attack on a RU soldier 00:05 start of first attack 00:15 before RU soldiers quickly moves out of the way 00:16-00:18 view from another drone - RU soldeir quickly moves away, UKR operator of the first drone decides to abort attempt and pulls drone up 00:19 UKR operator dive down again RU soldier quickly moves to a different direction 00:20 UKR drone misses RU soldier and hits ground nearby. A soldier is wounded in leg and hand (not criticaly) and survives. Interesting description of the whole attack: First drone hit other target - a group of troops nearby (on video from 00:00 to 00:04) reported damage, one died The soldier was wounded by a second drone between 00:04 and 00:20The third drone fell nearby, quote "flew round and then fell... simply fell nearby" The fourth drone exploded near the car where the solder was placed, "glass got broken...we waited for the driver and then left" Cheap mass-produced FPV drones aren't as quick or nimble as many thinks. Attacks using these low-cost drones are not as effective or devastating as many imagine. Finally, the prototype was evaluated by a Ukrainian FPV operator, who stated that the army should be armed with them. it is not 100% protection, but it is definitely more effective than people think. That is not really "data", those are anecdotes. The fact that we have drones chasing individual soldiers with even half decent effects (in a four drone strike, I count two cas) is mind boggling. Of course they are just going to get more effective as people figure out better ways to employ and arm them. I think this shotgun thing will work and what is needed right now. But then someone will figure out stand off/EFP, but this is the nature of things. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Just now, billbindc said: None shall pass! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grigb Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 23 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said: This solves the biggest problem seen with shotguns... size. Every soldier needs the ability to take out a drone, but you can't give every guy a shotgun. Having one soldier within a platoon may help with the logistics, however the reality of how dispersed units are this isn't practical. This thing is small enough that a unit on the defensive could easily have a couple of crates of them to hand out. Looks light and compact enough that each soldier could carry one. Yes, more weight for the poor bastards to tote around, but desperate times call for desperate measures. And with Ukraine being on the defensive for the next year it's less of an issue since soldiers will mostly fight from prepared positions where everything doesn't have to be carried 100% of the time. I hope this proves effective and can get out there in large numbers quickly. Steve Imagine an underbarrel setup where the shot is initiated by a proximity sensor. Soldier has to point it in the general direction and push the trigger to activate the sensor. Once the sensor detects the drone, it fires 2-3 rounds in rapid succession, leaving you with 2-3 more in case of a second attack. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 19 minutes ago, billbindc said: A percussion cap muket? Regarding weapons it seems U.S. Army was in worse situation than the UKR army today. Edited February 23 by Fernando 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 18 minutes ago, Grigb said: Imagine an underbarrel setup where the shot is initiated by a proximity sensor. Soldier has to point it in the general direction and push the trigger to activate the sensor. Once the sensor detects the drone, it fires 2-3 rounds in rapid succession, leaving you with 2-3 more in case of a second attack. Something like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAUL_(shotgun) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 20 minutes ago, Grigb said: Imagine an underbarrel setup where the shot is initiated by a proximity sensor. Soldier has to point it in the general direction and push the trigger to activate the sensor. Once the sensor detects the drone, it fires 2-3 rounds in rapid succession, leaving you with 2-3 more in case of a second attack. I can think of about a half dozen reasons why this is a terrible idea. Just give the guys the damned dumb blasty shotgun. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 33 minutes ago, billbindc said: This image had an educational effect on me: It made me look up where, exactly, the femoral artery is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 18 hours ago, Butschi said: a) the supposed Russian estimate of 2 days for the initial invasion (not CIA) No one took a shot at this. I don't have a source that proves it but I think you can look at the attack actions and infer the plan was to take out the head and end the whole thing in a few days: Columns of mech streaming in from the north and just trying to drive on the roads to Kyiv Air mobile landings at air ports around major cities especially Kyiv Saboteurs activated in the capital as the attack got started. You don't drop air mobile guys that far behind enemy lines with a plan that says it will take three weeks to get to where you dropped them off. You don't just start driving on the highway if you expected significant resistance. The combination of these actions points, in my opinion, strongly towards a 2 day plan. Or at least a quick win plan. To me it looked like a plan to attack on a broad front in the east and south but the victory path was to take over the capital. Decapitate the current regime and insert a favorable one that would then take over the army and have it stand down. With that new government in place your forces in all parts of the country can then concentrate on mopping up those that choose not the listen to the new leadership. Maybe not a 2 day plan but 2 days to be a unstoppable several week process. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbindc Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 1 minute ago, A Canadian Cat - was IanL said: No one took a shot at this. I don't have a source that proves it but I think you can look at the attack actions and infer the plan was to take out the head and end the whole thing in a few days: Columns of mech streaming in from the north and just trying to drive on the roads to Kyiv Air mobile landings at air ports around major cities especially Kyiv Saboteurs activated in the capital as the attack got started. You don't drop air mobile guys that far behind enemy lines with a plan that says it will take three weeks to get to where you dropped them off. You don't just start driving on the highway if you expected significant resistance. The combination of these actions points, in my opinion, strongly towards a 2 day plan. Or at least a quick win plan. To me it looked like a plan to attack on a broad front in the east and south but the victory path was to take over the capital. Decapitate the current regime and insert a favorable one that would then take over the army and have it stand down. With that new government in place your forces in all parts of the country can then concentrate on mopping up those that choose not the listen to the new leadership. Maybe not a 2 day plan but 2 days to be a unstoppable several week process. The pithy response: Hostomel and full dress uniforms. https://warontherocks.com/2023/08/the-battle-of-hostomel-airport-a-key-moment-in-russias-defeat-in-kyiv/ https://en.lb.ua/news/2022/03/06/10225_special_operation_forces_russians.html 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holoween Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 12 minutes ago, A Canadian Cat - was IanL said: You don't just start driving on the highway if you expected significant resistance. Yea but also the ground conditions didnt really allow for anything else. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maciej Zwolinski Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 18 hours ago, Butschi said: Does anyone have good sources handy on a) the supposed Russian estimate of 2 days for the initial invasion (not CIA) Rusi report talks about a 10-day plan for invasion https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/special-resources/preliminary-lessons-conventional-warfighting-russias-invasion-ukraine-february-july-2022 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Rabb Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) The interview in English starts at 3:49 with a Ukrainian Air Force pilot call sign Moonfish. As someone who has had the pleasure of flying the F-16 in DCS I gotta agree with his description of the feeling of flying it. Edited February 23 by Harmon Rabb 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 19 minutes ago, Maciej Zwolinski said: Rusi report talks about a 10-day plan for invasion https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/special-resources/preliminary-lessons-conventional-warfighting-russias-invasion-ukraine-february-july-2022 The Exec sum points hold up for the most part. I don't think they had a "2 day" plan...Ukraine is a big country. But the whole thing was supposed to be over in a week or two. I think they may have been ready for resistance in Western Ukraine in the longer run but more insurgency. They had one helluva nasty occupation plan : https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/special-resources/preliminary-lessons-russias-unconventional-operations-during-russo-ukrainian-war-february-2022 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbindc Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 1 minute ago, The_Capt said: The Exec sum points hold up for the most part. I don't think they had a "2 day" plan...Ukraine is a big country. But the whole thing was supposed to be over in a week or two. I think they may have been ready for resistance in Western Ukraine in the longer run but more insurgency. They had one helluva nasty occupation plan : https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/special-resources/preliminary-lessons-russias-unconventional-operations-during-russo-ukrainian-war-february-2022 Where could I find that plan or a good description of it? It would help with some of the people I deal with. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) Talking as we have been about real journalism I managed to watch this available in UK on ITV. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/19/uk-documentary-listens-to-both-sides-on-ukraines-frontline-with-russia YouTube promo above. He got access to the Russian side and it isn't Russian BS propaganda but does interview those fighting for Russia and the separatist. He even gets into "Sherwood Forest" just after it was taken by Russian forces. He sees the aftermath of the rout of one of the Russian collapses. The interviews with a couple of the civilians are worth watching, especially the crazy / lovable large lady who nearly kidnapped him. No stunning information but it kinda of backs up (I hate to say) the Capt pov that it might be better for Ukraine to cut Donbass loose. An interviewed Russian doctor sums it up war destroys everything. - Russian medical care not great but interesting to see a "field hospital". Not sure of distribution outside of the UK, but if you do get a chance to watch it, I think it's worth it. Edited February 23 by Holien 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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