Benefits and risks of hull down battle positions

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I have tried it out a few times, but I think it's a shortcut that I don't need, so I never use it, preferring to enter hulldown manually, I just feel more comfortable have the control of where my tank comes to a halt. 

Agreed.  With experience it's not hard to position hull-down towards the enemy.  I do not recall any hull-down command in CM1.  But... I haven't played CM1 for a long time.  

When one tries out a LOS/Target command from a hull-down vehicle, one gets a text saying that the vehicle is "hull-down" or "partial hulldown" (top of the vehicle body).  So, that is how one knows.   

One major wrinkle that one must be aware of is that one may have no LOS/TARGET to a piece of real estate.  However, if a vehicle crosses that same piece of real estate, it is obviously higher than the ground, and your unit may very well see and be able to shoot at the enemy.

To check for "real LOS/TARGET" one can place a vehicle waypoint at the target real estate location and check LOS from that waypoint.  If you get LOS from that waypoint to the unit you want to check, then your vehicle unit will be visible to an enemy unit sitting at that waypoint.  That also means that you can ensure that you have some sort of hull-down position relative to that real estate location.

Sounds confusing and complex?  As I said b4 it all comes from experience.  Once one has done this a few dozen times, it becomes 2nd nature.

[Pelican Pal]

3 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

The advantages with a hull down tank are with spotting... and probably the to-hit chance as well.

To reiterate my original post the game gives you a dramatic buff to concealment. I ran 62 tests and in nearly half of those the hull down tank wasn't spotted. It also points to the importance for the attacker to do reconnaisance since getting spotting markers and sharing those via C2 can really narrow down the defenders hull down advantage.

 Hull down only provides a minor buff to hit chance but its not something I'd rely on.
 

2 hours ago, Erwin said:

Agreed.  With experience it's not hard to position hull-down towards the enemy.  I do not recall any hull-down command in CM1.  But... I haven't played CM1 for a long time.  

CMBB and CMAK have a hull down command. Not sure about CMBO.


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I see the Hull Down command as being similar to the Assault command. You will get better results doing it manually but the command acts as a time saver if you don't want to commit even more of your life to CM. Playing against the AI I tend towards the command while in PVP I tend towards doing it manually.

[chuckdyke]

7 hours ago, Pelican Pal said:

I ran 62 tests and in nearly half of those the hull down tank wasn't spotted.

Seelow in F&R Soviet infantry spots the German tanks in hull down from a km away under hazy conditions. Going by your figures this should be a bug. Not only do they spot armor but also spot a Tiger or a Panther. I play on Iron and tested this scenario numerous times.  

[KGBoy]

9 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Seelow in F&R Soviet infantry spots the German tanks in hull down from a km away under hazy conditions. Going by your figures this should be a bug. Not only do they spot armor but also spot a Tiger or a Panther. I play on Iron and tested this scenario numerous times.  

 I just bought RT and presently playing Baranovici. Spotting a panther (medium tank on iron) 2180 metres and 1980 metres. Not even sure if they can penetrate as yet at that distance? I am hull down and not been spotted.

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, KGBoy said:

Not even sure if they can penetrate as yet at that distance? I am hull down and not been spotted.

You need infantry to spot, tank vs tank is worse. With a T34/85 you need to be under 1000 metres to have a chance and better below 500 metres. I know the scenario you talk about. The Russian 85mm is not on par with the US 76 mm if the latter uses HVAP ammo. For me German Cats apart from the Lynx overwhelm them and penetrate from the side or rear. 

[Pelican Pal]

6 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Seelow in F&R Soviet infantry spots the German tanks in hull down from a km away under hazy conditions. Going by your figures this should be a bug. Not only do they spot armor but also spot a Tiger or a Panther. I play on Iron and tested this scenario numerous times.  

My tests were tank vs tank since I was interested in how that interaction plays out. However, you are right that infantry in CM do a solid job spotting armor. IIRC you showed how you use mounted infantry on tanks to increase their spotting chances on the Discord a few weeks ago. That sort of thing would be great here too.

[chuckdyke]

5 minutes ago, Pelican Pal said:

My tests were tank vs tank since I was interested in how that interaction plays out.

Also I found it is a worthwhile tactic to fire at a tank when it is a strong tentative contact. Another plus when you have infantry riders on your tank. Their full contact becomes a tentative contact for the tank they are on. When you have the numbers like on Seelow it is worth to try it out yourself.