BAR is better than MP44 ??

[Sergeant Huang]

I did a search and find nothing about

that. If you know that, please let me

know the key word. (I used MP44 and BAR)

According to the fire power table,

BAR is better than the MP44, but,

what do you think, guys ??

I doubt !!

By the way, whose (Bar and MP44)

backward momentum(I don't know how

to state the right words, I wish you

know what I mean)is bigger ?? Is the

answer BAR ??

Thanks for your answer in advance !!

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Sgt. Huang

I LOVE my country, but my

government sucks.

[Guest Pillar]

I believe the word you are after is 'recoil', but I don't know the answer to your question

[Mark IV]

BAR certainly has greater recoil... but it also has a bipod, and shoots great honking (.30-06) bullets that go through pretty good-sized trees, German HTs, and so forth.

It is a very heavy weapon, which absorbs recoil, and was designed as a squad LMG.

MP-44 is one of my favorite rifles in the game, but it is a shoulder-fired infantryman's weapon and neither as accurate in full auto nor as potent downrange (shooting the 7.92 Kurz, a much lighter load) as a BAR. It is like a heavy AK47.

They are just different types of weapons.

[Kitty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

*snip* BAR *snip* shoots great honking (.30-06) bullets that go through pretty good-sized trees<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your post is correct, but define "good-sized." While the 30-06 is a powerful round, it won't pierce what I would call a good-sized tree. =)

Kitty

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ICQ 8273286

http://www.fluffkitty.com

[Chupacabra]

BARs are a squad support weapon, while MP44s are an automatic rifle. The closest comparison for the BAR would be an MG42 in the LMG role.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[Silver Stars]

I am not sure but IIRC, wasn't the BAR used more like a really heavy Assault Rifle with low ROF then a LMG? Since it used clips of ammo instead of the traditional belt feed method, it didn't require an asst. gunner like a vickers or MG42. I thought this was why ASL always involved the BAR into the squads inherent firepower instead of making a seperate BAR counter(sorry if the ASL reference loses some people)?

Don't torch me too bad, since i am not real knowledgeable on the subject and i'm kind of fragile....grin....

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"From the Mountains of the Moon, Down the Valley of the Shadow, Ride Boldly Ride", the Shade replied, "If you seek for El Dorado."

[Chupacabra]

AFAIK, the BAR, the Bren, and the MG42 LMG all performed the same role: squad support weapon (yes, I know I'm repeating myself). ie - suppress the enemy while the squad maneuvers.

I'm not sure I'd want to use a BAR as an assault rifle. Considering the round it fired I imagine the recoil would be jarring, to say the least. I think you'd have to be quite well braced to fire bursts from a BAR.

Obviously I have no firsthand experience firing one, so if anyone does, I'd be curious to hear the verdict

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[pzvg]

Having been blessed to fire a BAR, I contribute the following, Larger round then MP44,more reach,more hitting power.

actually in terms of relative capabilities,the Bren is an exact match for the BAR, the 42 having a higher ROF.

And last note, firing a BAR is only a little worse than an M1 garand, same recoil, just closer together

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Pzvg

"Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"

[Olle Petersson]

About the recoil:

Unfortunately neither I have any real info about these weapons, but;

The H&K G3 is pretty much a straight down modernised version of the MP44. It operates with a semi locked bolt, which gives it a pretty tough recoil.

Other types of operation for automatic weapons, like the open bolt of Sten and MP40, or gas operation like MG42, have a lesser recoil since there's a heavy part inside that slides back on springs acting like a recoil compensator.

Cheers

Olle

[Silver Stars]

well, i've been doing some grognard homework, and i have come up with some info...

while the BAR was designated as the SAW of the typical American infantry squad, It was a kind of a crappy SAW. The BAR had a 500 rpm firing rate, but only a 20 round capacity clip. Now by my calculations, that means that if you went full auto with the BAR you would be out of ammo in 2.4 seconds.of course,no one in there right mind would want to go full auto, but even using three round bursts every second, your out of ammo in six seconds.

another problem is that the BAR had some wicked recoil, and the barrel would overheat easily. With the mg34/mg42,they used a quick-changing barrel system. But you could not change the barrel on the BAR, and I have read of times when the barrel would warp and render the weapon useless from overheating.All this adds up to is an even lower rate of fire.

Now, the cartridge presents an even further problem since it is removed from the bottom. not a big deal for a assault rifle/submachine gun, but since LMG's on bipods are used more often then not with the firer prone, this makes it difficult to switch cartridges. that is why many cartridge fed machine guns are fed in the side or top.

with a small ammo load, heavy recoil, and lack of barrel changing i think this would make down field supression fire a real bitch. recoil throws off your aim too much, and you couldn't just hose the area with bullets since the rifle can't take it and you don't have enough ammo in a clip for sustained fire anyway.

overall, I think of the BAR as an inbetween instead of an assault rifle or an LMG.I guess a Fully auto rifle that is too big to be used as a rifle.

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"From the Mountains of the Moon, Down the Valley of the Shadow, Ride Boldly Ride", the Shade replied, "If you seek for El Dorado."

[Silver Stars]

p.s. got most of my info from Rand McNally encyclopedia of world war II, entries about small arms by ian v. hogg.so if you disagree with my post,yell at that guy.

btw, isn't basically an mp44 a submachine gun with a single shot option with a longer barrel? i apoligize if this sounds newbie-ish, but i like this topic and more info about small arms, the better......

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"From the Mountains of the Moon, Down the Valley of the Shadow, Ride Boldly Ride", the Shade replied, "If you seek for El Dorado."

[Guest machineman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

btw, isn't basically an mp44 a submachine gun with a single shot option with a longer barrel?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The short round of an MP44 was a breakthrough in that it combined a fairly heavy cartridge with much smaller powder loading, resulting in round with high stopping power but much less recoil. Submachine guns used pistol ammo, AFAIK, which has less recoil but other disadvantages. Some pictures of different rounds:

Kurz round is the short one on the left and 7.62 NATO (which is similar to 30-06 in a lot of ways) is the long one in the middle.

Comparison of bullet size, weight, velocity, and energy:

7.92mm Kurz 7.92x33 125 2,250 1,413

7.62mm NATO 7.62x51 150 2,750 2,532

More info at:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun

The ".256 British" story there has some good info, both on British and American experiences with small arms ammo this century.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Experience in the Second World War reinforced the point that Britain’s standard rifle ammunition, in common with that of other nations, was unnecessarily powerful for most engagements. It was capable of shooting accurately out to 1,000 yards (and ranging out to over 4,000 in the streamlined Mark VIII version for the Vickers Machine Gun), yet almost all fire-fights took place at less than 300 yards. This might not have mattered, except that the advantages of fully-automatic fire in shoulder-fired weapons had also become obvious, and this was not feasible

with full-power military rifle cartridges because of their heavy recoil.

The 1939-45 conflict saw both the acceptance of the sub-machine gun as an important military weapon and the introduction of its eventual replacement; the assault rifle. The need for a weapon with the automatic fire of a submachine gun but the range to cope with most infantry engagements was first realised in Germany. This led to the introduction of the MP43 Sturmgewehr (assault rifle), firing a new 7.92mm Kurz (short) cartridge with a performance intermediate between the standard 7.92mm rifle/MG round and the 9mm sub-machine gun cartridge. The Soviet Union soon followed suit with the 7.62mm M1943 round, due for international fame in the Kalashnikov AK47 assault rifle but also used in other weapons including light machine guns.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by machineman (edited 11-24-2000).]

[gaffertape]

SILVER STARS: Your latest description of the BAR sums it up pretty well. A stopgap weapon between a rifle and a HMG.

The MP44 though, is the worlds first assault rifle (sturmgewher?); the forefather of the standard army issue weapon today in all nations. The concept was to make a submachinegun that had more stopping power and range, and would be good for suppression fire as well. It used a cartrige that was larger than a SMG round but smaller than the rifle's.

It was an excellent weapon, and not in the same category as the BAR. The MP44 is an upgunned SMG, not an LMG.

BTW, Great topic.

GAFF

[Guest Big Time Software]

SilverStars,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>overall, I think of the BAR as an inbetween instead of an assault rifle or an LMG.I guess a Fully auto rifle that is too big to be used as a rifle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct.

Having fired an MP44 (twice) as well as a MP38 (same as MP40 for this discussion), I can tell you for sure that the MP44 has about as much recoil, but far better in every other way (from a firing standpoint). Muzzle climb for 3 round bursts was hardly anything compared to the MP38/40.

Steve

[Kurtz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

The H&K G3 is pretty much a straight down modernised version of the MP44. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't the G3 a descendant of the planned MP45 (?) with rollers to lock the bolt.

Anyway, the design of the mechanism in the MP44 and the G3 is completely different from each other.

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Spending extravagant amounts of money for marginal improvements is only acceptable in the fields of racehorses and fancy women.

-Lord Kelvin

[Mark IV]

Kitty, I've put the .30-06 with standard loads through a roughly 12" diameter hardwood. It'll go through quite a bit more pine. No science here, just my observations.

I don't have an MP44, to my intense chagrin, but I have things which fire the 7.62x39 Soviet which is ballistically almost identical to the "8mm kurz", and have killed deer with both. No comparison in hitting power OR recoil.

BAR was a very advanced mechanical design for its day, which happened to be WWI. The fact that they were the US squad LMG 30 years later says more about our preparedness for war than it does about the BAR. It was a very sound design, advanced for its day, and worked well if you kept it clean.

Actually, the intended role of the BAR may have been as an "assault rifle". The intent was to advance at a walking pace across no man's land firing it from the hip, with sling support. This design criteria, regardless of how stupid, explains the configuration.

By WWII it was kind of an answer to a question no one was asking, but we needed some kind of LMG in a hurry. It was not an ideal LMG or SAW for the many excellent reasons cited above, but you use what you got.

[Silver Stars]

wow. I walk out to toy r us to look at some of those 21st century tanks that just came out,and man what a response.....I even got BTS to say i'm correct..Made my day......

Okay, so basically to sum up....

the MP44,(also known as the Sturmgewehr 43,I THINK)was a design that involved the high ROF of a submachine gun but used a smaller caliber and larger powder cartridge for longer reach.This was opposed to theory of pistol ammo used in SMGs, which was designed for shorter range but hit harder.

(I am not sure, but is part of this line of thought related to the line of thinking behind carbines? i.e., rifle range is pointlessly long, shorten gun and powder cartridge for lighter load on soldier?)

And everything everybody has sent leads me to think that the BAR,like other MGs, fires rifle-sized ammo in full auto. This leads to semi-auto Rifle level of recoil with the rapidity of a MG(this tying in with pzvg's comment on BAR recoil simular to M1's). Of course, most LMGs use easier swapping cartridges or belt feeds and a barrel exchange system.

side question what was the bullet used in the m1?i thinks it .30-06, but isn't the m1 a direct descendant of the m14,which uses 5.56? I cant quite remember)

again, thanks for the discussion!(although I think we gave Sgt. Huang's answer a while ago..)

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"From the Mountains of the Moon, Down the Valley of the Shadow, Ride Boldly Ride", the Shade replied, "If you seek for El Dorado."

[Silver Stars]

quote:

Actually, the intended role of the BAR may have been as an "assault rifle". The intent was to advance at a walking pace across no man's land firing it from the hip, with sling support.

Jesus.....firing .30-06 ammo full auto from the hip?while walking?????

my god.....talk about Rambo of the Marne...

apparently marijauna use was free and clear in the browning design bureau.....

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"From the Mountains of the Moon, Down the Valley of the Shadow, Ride Boldly Ride", the Shade replied, "If you seek for El Dorado."

[Guest machineman]

Nice article on the MP-43/Sg44 here:

http://home.inreach.com/rickylaw/dictatorship/heer/infantry/mp43stg44/mp43stg44.html

Gerbil carrying the MP 43 in question.

[This message has been edited by machineman (edited 11-24-2000).]

[gaffertape]

I think the M14 was derived from the M1 Garand, not the other way around. Not sure about the M14 caliber though.

GAFF

[Silver Stars]

DOH!! sorry about the m1-m14 mixup, but english is my second language after drunken slurring .

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"From the Mountains of the Moon, Down the Valley of the Shadow, Ride Boldly Ride", the Shade replied, "If you seek for El Dorado."

[Chupacabra]

IIRC the M14 takes a 7.62mm NATO cartridge. No idea what that works out to in caliber measurements.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Encyclopedia of Infantry Weapons of World War II

Browning automatic rifle, M1918A2

Caliber .30 in

Length 47.75 in

Weight 22 lbs

Barrel 24.0 in long, 4 grooves, right hand twist

Feed system 20-round detachable box magazine

System of operation Gas; lifting bolt

Rate of fire (cyclic) 500 rpm

Manufacturers Colt Patent Firearms Manufacturing Co.

Winchester Repeating Arms Co., New Haven, Conn.

Marlin-Rockwell Corporation

When the United States Army entered World War I in 1917 it was in no sense equipped with automatic weapons; it merely possessed an assortment, and one of its first tasks was to acquire a supply of machine guns. John M. Browning stepped into the breach with two designs, one of which was this automatic rifle. Unfortunately, organizing production took time, and it was not until the summer of 1918 that issues began. From then until after World War II it remained the squad light automatic of the US Army.

While it was laudable to equip the army with an American weapon, it has to be said that the Browning was not one of the best of its kind. It was originally intended to be used during the assault, firing from the hip, a French theory for giving covering fire while crossing no-man's-land which, along with a lot of other peculiar French theories, was adopted by the US Army. But the action of the weapon is so violent that accurate fire under these conditions is almost impossible, and the gun was later provided with a bipod so that it could be used in the more conventional prone position.

The mechanism used a tipping bolt operated by a gas piston, a system more or less based on Browning's pump-action shotgun of 1904, but the lightness of the weapon (15.5 lbs without bipod in original form) led to light reciprocating parts, and in order to keep the rate of fire within reasonable bounds, it was necessary to include a shock absorber in the return spring assembly. In spite of this, the violence of the action led to rapid wear, and the rate of attrition in action was higher than for other light automatics.

Another drawback was the bottom mounted 20-round magazine, inconvenient to change in action and with a limited capacity for automatic fire. In spite of all this, however, it had the advantage of being designed with mass-production in mind, and it was relatively easy to produce.

As well as being standard in the US Army it was widely adopted by other countries as a light machine gun, and large numbers were supplied to Britain during the war when it was used to arm Home Guard detachments.

Variants

M1918 The original model; no bipod, sights not adjustable for windage; selective full automatic or single shot fire.

M1918A1 Hinged butt plate; bipod attached just ahead of the fore-end stock.

M1922 Basically a 1918 with the barrel finned to improve cooling. Few of this pattern were issued.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The BAR was the main squad support weapon used by the US in WWII. As many as three were allocated to each squad and provided much of the squad fire power. It was not a machine gun, but was designed to be used on the offensive. I consider it a heavy assault rifle.

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It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[This message has been edited by Snake Eyes (edited 11-24-2000).]

[Mark IV]

Both M1 Garand and the BAR (along with the Springfield '03 bolt action) fire the .30-06.

The M14, on the other hand, fires the 7.62 NATO round.

7.62mm = .30 caliber.

However, the load behind the slug (usually but not always reflected by the case length), and the weight of the slug, determine its power.

.30-06 was adopted by the US Army in 1906, hence the name, which distinguishes it from the 7.62 NATO, the later, somewhat lighter standard NATO round (adopted in the 50s) still in use.

To further clarify matters , the US sporting designation for the 7.62 NATO is .308 Winchester. They are the same bullet.

So .30-06 and the .308 have the same bullet diameter, but the .30-06 is the more powerful round. Stand one against the other, and you will see that the .30-06 is longer and holds more powder.

The 7.62x39mm Soviet, which is very similar to the 8mm (or 7.92 kurz), is ALSO .30 caliber in diameter (as indicated by the 7.62) but has a much shorter case (and less powder) than either the .30-06 or the 7.62 NATO. The 39 indicates the case length in mm. Because it is shorter, it holds less powder, making it an intermediate cartridge.

It is still a baa-ad little bullet, much more powerful than a military pistol cartridge, but with less recoil than the big rifles, which facilitates full-auto operation in short bursts. It was based on the first of the intermediate assault-rifle type, the German 8mm kurz, which had a slightly larger diameter (8mm is nominal, actual is 7.92mm, which is about .315 caliber).

Semi-autos fire as fast as you can pull the trigger, but you have to pull the trigger each time. Full-auto means you can hold the trigger down and it will keep firing. This is hard on barrels, shooters, and accuracy, so it is usually done in short bursts (now they have 2 or 3 round burst capability built in to military weapons). Selective fire means you have a switch to go from semi to full.

So M1 was semi-auto (only), .30-06.

BAR was full-auto .30-06 (an MG, though an LMG because of the limited magazine capacity and no tripod). There was a select-fire option on some versions.

MP44 (or MP43, or StG43) was select fire, either semi or full, and fired the 8mm kurz (or "short").

M14, like the German G3, fired the 7.62mm NATO, and both are selective fire.

Technically the BAR had less recoil than an M1 shot for shot, since the weight of the weapon is a big factor in the amount of felt recoil, and the BAR was much heavier. It was in the auto mode that it became a bear, because you got slammed multiple (500, theoretically, but you ran out after 20) times per second.

[Chupacabra]

Thanks, Mark IV. Very...groggy of you.