Gran He Precision strikes

[FogForever]

I got the urge to play some Black Sea and decided to do the Ukrainian campaign.  In the 2nd scenario, I have a Forward Observer with a laser designator and a clear LOS on a target.  My 120mm Mortars each have 12 Gran He ammo available.  As far as I can tell, I have met all conditions to request a precision 120mm Gran HE strike on the target but I am not getting the option for a precision strike.  Any ideas why not?   Thanks.

[Redwolf]

The only thing I can think of is that you have multiple units selected and one or more lack the precision rounds.

[Artkin]

I have had the option in one of my games but wasn't able to call them in either. I think I was playing Ukranian

[FogForever]

My artillery was free and available for call.  I had not used any of the Gran rounds.  I just don't know why I was not given a precision mission.

[zmoney]

Can you post a screenshot or save file?

[dbsapp]

10 hours ago, FogForever said:

I got the urge to play some Black Sea and decided to do the Ukrainian campaign.  In the 2nd scenario, I have a Forward Observer with a laser designator and a clear LOS on a target.  My 120mm Mortars each have 12 Gran He ammo available.  As far as I can tell, I have met all conditions to request a precision 120mm Gran HE strike on the target but I am not getting the option for a precision strike.  Any ideas why not?   Thanks.

There are no precision munitions for Ukraninan 120 mm mortars.

From the manual:

"American 155 mm artillery, Russian 122 mm and 152 mm, and Ukrainian 152 mm artillery have precision ammunition. American and Russian 120 mm mortars have "near-precision" rounds that while still very accurate, are not quite as accurate artillery precision ammunition. 

Other important notes for precision artillery missions: 
- Precision missions must use a Point target. 
- Russian and Ukrainian precision missions are laser-guided, which requires that the spotter team possess a laser designator. American precision missions are GPS-guided, which do not require a laser designator. 
- Precision missions do not have a duration. The maximum number of shells that can be dropped during a mission is one per gun".

[John Kettler]

3 hours ago, dbsapp said:

There are no precision munitions for Ukraninan 120 mm mortars.

From the manual:

"American 155 mm artillery, Russian 122 mm and 152 mm, and Ukrainian 152 mm artillery have precision ammunition. American and Russian 120 mm mortars have "near-precision" rounds that while still very accurate, are not quite as accurate artillery precision ammunition. 

Other important notes for precision artillery missions: 
- Precision missions must use a Point target. 
- Russian and Ukrainian precision missions are laser-guided, which requires that the spotter team possess a laser designator. American precision missions are GPS-guided, which do not require a laser designator. 
- Precision missions do not have a duration. The maximum number of shells that can be dropped during a mission is one per gun".

In light of the unambiguously phrased from the CMBS Manual, it increasingly seems to me, having read this thread closely, that the issue may be that the Ukrainian 120 mm mortar may've been mistakenly assigned, at least at the menu level, a munition type that simply don't exist for the weapon in real life and, further, is not implemented under the hood of the game, either, resulting in the maddening situation of being able to select a munition which doesn't exist and isn't recognized under the hood as existing, so can never be fired, no matter how clear the LOS for the laser designator. If this is the case, then there is a need to fix this. In theory, the easy fix would be to simply remove the nonexistent Gran round from the ammunition type menu. In theory!

Here's GRAN, a KBP product, so Red Army only for CMBS purposes. This is a superb weapon marketing video, which is full of fascinating information, of which one of the most important is that the GRAN 120mm mortar warhead delivers the same amount of HE on the target as does the 152 mm HE conventional field artillery shell. This means the GRAN hits harder than does the Kitolov 122 mm laser-guided shell for the D-30 and 2S1. Am unaware of any Kitolov firing tests against tanks with ERA on the turret roofs, but maybe GRAN reflects such testing.
 

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited January 24, 2022 by John Kettler

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Hold on.....I've used these munitions in CM:BS palying as the Ukrainians, in the scenario 'Brutal', they worked just fine (but are bordeline useless against tanks). 

I always use them at mission start with a five minute delay and thereafter until their precision ammo is gone. 

Only the forward observer (with a laser designator) among my forces can call for these munitions IIRC.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Sgt.Squarehead

[John Kettler]

Sgt.Squarehead,

We've now crossed into the Surreal, for you are firing nonexistent for the UA GRAN (per the CMBS rules) that other people, apparently with great LOS from laser designator to target, can't fire at all. Am intensely curious how this is possible. 

Regards,

John Kettler

 

[Lethaface]

21 hours ago, FogForever said:

I got the urge to play some Black Sea and decided to do the Ukrainian campaign.  In the 2nd scenario, I have a Forward Observer with a laser designator and a clear LOS on a target.  My 120mm Mortars each have 12 Gran He ammo available.  As far as I can tell, I have met all conditions to request a precision 120mm Gran HE strike on the target but I am not getting the option for a precision strike.  Any ideas why not?   Thanks.

I had no issues with them in the past. Need laser designator, point target and lof. Maybe new patch did something?

[Chibot Mk IX]

upload a save file should be helpful.

If my memory is correct, I experienced a weird laser guided ammunition issue before, it was very similar to the one you have just experienced.

It is possible caused by a hull down target.   

[John Kettler]

Guys,

Seems to me there are multiple disconnects here: 1) Per the CMBS Manual, GRAN ( a Russian PGM) is, unsurprisingly, not an available ammo option for the UA 120 mm mortar; 2) multiple people, despite apparently great LOS for their laser designators, can't get GRAN to fire at all, yet 3) other people are firing GRAN, a PGM the UA doesn't have and getting real in-game effects from these PGMs the UA doesn't have.

If we stipulate the Manual is correct; that research shows (which it does) the UA does NOT have GRAN, so Manual matches reality, then we have a menu which matches neither. What's certain is that the menu needs fixing. But what I really want to know is how, presuming that everyone reporting about GRAN on the scale of total inability to fire GRAN-no problems selecting it; worked great, all had blue LOS from their laser designators to the targets, how some got nowhere and couldn't fire at all, others had some issues, and some had none, with presumably the exact same code applying to all three cases? How, if the initial inputs are the same, can there be three separate and distinct outcomes? Would simply removing GRAN from the menu solve the problem, or would the code generating such disparate results be the basis for such high weirdness elsewhere in the game, either now, in a Module or in, say, a 2024 version?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sgt.Squarehead]

No disconnect on my part mate:

Just someone who doesn't actually play these games waffling on again, as far as I can tell. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Sgt.Squarehead

[fireship4]

Quote

Just someone who doesn't actually play these games waffling on again, as far as I can tell. 

Talking to him like that over and over does you discredit.  If you find his posts of no worth, move on.

With regard to the subject, I seem to remember from a patch or the manual or something that some of the Russian/UA laser designators work only outside buildings.

Edited January 25, 2022 by fireship4

[zmoney]

56 minutes ago, fireship4 said:

Talking to him like that over and over does you discredit.  If you find his posts of no worth, move on.

To defend the Sarg, spam bot 5000/ John K was asking for it. From what I remember, he doesn’t own this game so why is he commenting on something like this other than to create spam and troll.

[John Kettler]

Sgt.Squarehead,

If applying reason and logic, not to mention research, is waffling on, then I am assuredly guilty, but you might want to look at what evidently compels you to keep taking the same cheap shot at me. You know perfectly well why I don't play any CMx2 at all presently nor have been able to in over a year. Regardless, the indisputable fact remains that you are firing a per the CMBS Manual and reality nonexistent for the UA PGM. Your experience is part of a continuum of baffling to me behavior by the Tactical AI.

zmoney,

Name calling is prohibited on the Forums, and you are in error as to your memory, for not only do I own the game, but I Pre-Ordered.  And I have played CMBS. I do NOT spam or troll, either. Have I raised controversial issues in the past? Yes. Have I on occasion made some outright mistakes? Also yes. But neither constitutes spamming or trolling, and I am assuredly no bot. Have been involved with CM going back to the Beta Demo of CMx! CMBO and joined the CM Forums in February 2000, which means I am mere days away from 21 years here. Have nearly 17,000 posts to my credit, too. Have participated in multiple iconic CMx1 tournaments and been an. AAR judge in another. By contrast, you have been here since 2005 and have fewer than 700 posts total.  

Regards,

John Kettler 

Edited January 25, 2022 by John Kettler

[zmoney]

58 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

Have nearly 17,000 posts to my credit, too. 
Regards,

John Kettler 

Haha, ole Johnny boy, this is why I called you spambot 5000. Honestly it was meant as a joke, not meant to be insulting. I too have been around these parts many moons and know you have too. Honestly I think of you as an old comfy blanket. I can always count on seeing one of your posts. I almost feel I know you. But in this case I felt you were trolling.

Back to the topic I’ve often wondered what was more accurate, the Rus/ Ukn Gran rounds or the US GPS guided rounds? I would think laser guided would be slightly more accurate but may be affected by adverse weather conditions which may be the case in the OP situation.

[John Kettler]

zmoney,

Appreciate your clarifying you were joking (have problems telling this online and, sometimes, in person), but rest assured, I wasn't trolling. Was trying to be helpful. Lie your old comfy blanket metaphor. Michael Emrys has met me in the flesh, so by all means ask him about me if you like. To address the issue you raised, I can say that the last numbers I recall seeing for GPS delivery accuracy for military applications were around 4 meters, but that was during the mid 1980s. By circa 2000, the best US military systems (DGPS) were down to a tiny by comparison 35 cm, little more than a foot. A laser-guided PGM, presuming its aimpoint is the middle of the target, as seen by the laser designator, should, absent environmental and/or countermeasure produced aimpoint wander or loss, theoretically score a direct hit every time. In reality, though, no munition, especially a complex one depending not just on internal reliability but also issues with the designator device, crew or both, not to mention comms between the designation team and mortar FC, simply cannot deliver 100% reliability. GPS has its own set of vulnerabilities, failure points, degraded modes and such, too. And if only one satellite is available, GPS delivery accuracy plummets. Might not be an issue for a 2000 pound JDAM but easily potentially enough to completely nullify an Excalibur attack on a stationary tank.

https://www.oc.nps.edu/oc2902w/gps/gpsacc.html

Regards,

John Kettler

P.S.

Though the CEP of Excalibur is listed as 5-20 meters, in the test shots shown in the chilling video at the link, the average miss distance was little more than 2 meters, from ranges as great as 50 kilometers.

https://www.military.com/video/guns/artillery/deadly-accurate-gps-guided-artillery/2789775727001

[Sgt.Squarehead]

5 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Your experience is part of a continuum of baffling to me behavior by the Tactical AI.

It has nothing to do with the Tactical AI whatsoever. 

Gran was apparently added to the Ukrainian TOE (for this fictional game), based on information that Battlefront had at the time they wrote it.....They haven't felt a need to update it, nor do I think there is one.

CM:BS is filled to the brim with TOE oddities, you can either go into the editor and sort it as best you can (in an attempt to create a more realistic TOE) or you can live with it.

Inaccurate comments that are completely unsupported by in-game evidence (& easily contradicted by the simple expedient of actually starting the game up and playing it) are of no value whatsoever IMHO. 

[Chibot Mk IX]

6 hours ago, zmoney said:

Back to the topic I’ve often wondered what was more accurate, the Rus/ Ukn Gran rounds or the US GPS guided rounds? I would think laser guided would be slightly more accurate but may be affected by adverse weather conditions which may be the case in the OP situation.

in theory, laser guided should be more accurate than GPS. CEP less than 1m to couple m vs CEP >10m.  But as you have already mentioned , LGB needs a prefect condition to achieve its high accuracy. Costwise GPS is more favorable   

[John Kettler]

Sgt.Squarehead,

Tactical AI was the only term I could come up with, since I knew for sure it wasn't Strategic AI. If BFC deliberately gave the UA Player GRAN, then the CMBS Manual needs tio be revised to reflect this, and GRAN should stay on the ammo type menu. As for evidence, am drawing on, as I said before, user reports fallng on the spectrum of Can't get it to fire at all, no matter how clear the LOS from the designator-Am having problems and getting inconsistent results-Works great, so what's the problem? You fall in the last category and seem to be the exception, rather than the rule. This led me to wonder how it is, that with clean LOS from the designator to the target, we're seeing the trouble reports we're seeing? If the code is the code, so to speak, how is it the results from the execution of that code are so wildly varying? Long ago, I had training in several computer languages, and when my program would crash (in the days of IBM punch cards), it was never a machine fault but an operator error usually caused by my mistyping an input. How, then, if the code is stable, and the GRAN firing attempts/firings are under the same LOS conditions, can the results vary so much? To me, that seems like an eminently fair issue to raise. As for your last sentence, I can't tell whether you're taking another cheap shot at me, are speaking generally, or maybe are doing both. 

Regards,

John Kettler

[THH149]

On 1/25/2022 at 11:12 PM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Gran was apparently added to the Ukrainian TOE (for this fictional game), based on information that Battlefront had at the time they wrote it.....

Ah yes, it's what the Game thinks is the truth that is the Truth, like knowing God, its up to the games disciples to discover this Truth!

[NeoOhm]

In "Act of valor" mission i have to sit in a BRM-1k recon vehicle as driver/gunner to use it.

Edited February 16, 2022 by NeoOhm