Snipers.

[chuckdyke]

The modelling of snipers. A Crack or Elite sniper should be an absolute pain but this is not modelled. They miss far too often and are spotted too soon because they miss too often.. Suggestions, instead of firing and miss let him not take the shot instead. In real life this is what separates an Olympic Shooter from a Club Shooter. Both have the same technical know how but an Elite Marksman knows when to call off his shot. Let him take a proper shot after 2 or more minutes by all means but don't let him miss 6 or more times during that time. Somebody who knows more about animations and the algorithm than me could come up with suggestions. 

Here it goes as I intended.

 

[Erwin]

Have always suggested that specialized troops with extra training should be better at tasks like sniping, engineers, spotters etc.  Re snipers their survivability is usually a factor of range.  Ideally, they want to be shooting at targets over 500m away.

[chuckdyke]

4 hours ago, Erwin said:

Re snipers their survivability is usually a factor of range. 

Or when they give their positions away. The TacAI let them shoot and at the ranges you suggest I have recorded misses up to 6 - 7 times before they hit. I suggest a different model for them. An Elite Marksman doesn't miss he wouldn't shoot if he can't call his shot. I think it would require a minor adjustment of the engine. Instead of shooting and missing the TacAI wouldn't let him shoot if it calculates a miss. I can understand if he has spotted an asset in a foxhole and it takes 3 or 4 minutes before he takes it out. He needs a hide again maybe 5 minutes to set himself up. Probably something for the next engine, I don't see any improvement in modern warfare compared to WW2. Reason I prefer the WW2 games. 

[Erwin]

Generally, units won't fire if there is not a good chance of doing "damage".  But, due to the well-known weirdness of the CM2 terrain and LOS system issues it is not uncommon for units to waste ammo on targets they cannot hit. 

A good example is when enemy units in a building can shoot at you, but you cannot target the enemy.  Or, a vehicle immediately behind a tree can be invulnerable to enemy fire along that direction while the firing unit (unless you stop it) will happily waste its entire loadout firing at the tree...   which of course is indestructible.

[chuckdyke]

4 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Or, a vehicle immediately behind a tree can be invulnerable to enemy fire along that direction while the firing unit (unless you stop it) will happily waste its entire loadout firing at the tree...

In my view this is a bug or a failure to test it properly. I don't know how they test it but I think it is a tree on a single heavy forest tile which is deceiving. But I feel a sniper should have a different code compared with other units. A miss should not be shot, a marksman knows if a shot is too risky. 

[Erwin]

I have experienced CM snipers/marksmen shooting all their ammo at a (seemingly easy) target they seemed unable to hit.  Terrain and LOS has weirdness.  But, it doesn't happen too often.

[chuckdyke]

What you see is not what you get, I get at the stage that battling the AI becomes a bore. Here an ATGM on top of a roof in full view of an obvious hide he is not the only one in that game. It is more suited for H&H I think.

[Erwin]

12 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

What you see is not what you get

Been saying that for years and getting heavy pushback about that.  It's an "Emperor has no clothes" item.  One simply learns to accept the problems/weirdness and work around it.  One has to learn to play vs the CM2 game system rather than 100% worrying about what happens in RL.  However, CM is still the best game available of its type.  So, one just has to adjust.  It is a "Commercial Off The Shelf" "game" one can buy for about $70 after all.

[Redwolf]

On 12/4/2021 at 11:14 PM, chuckdyke said:

They miss far too often and are spotted too soon because they miss too often.. Suggestions, instead of firing and miss let him not take the shot instead.

Yes, I think that would be an improvement for CMx2.

[chuckdyke]

7 hours ago, Redwolf said:

Yes, I think that would be an improvement for CMx2.

Thank you.

[chuckdyke]

8 hours ago, Erwin said:

So, one just has to adjust. 

Don't agree with that. If you keep silly things people stop playing. I think SF2 is still basically a WW2 game. The difference on Elite units western nation spent millions for the training of an elite soldier. In WW2 you basically at least on the Eastern Front you had cannon fodder and the game is more realistic. I picked the Sniper as an example he is doing things even a club shooter wouldn't do. That is firing if you can't call your shot. Something which could be modified. I sorted out the issue of finding a position in a building with a balcony on this forum. 

[sgt.longbow]

100% agree, took elite Canadian sniper team with bolt action 50cal and they could not hit a target in the open in optimal conditions.  devs really need to over haul the engine to correct stuff like this.

[domfluff]

On 3/25/2022 at 12:30 AM, sgt.longbow said:

100% agree, took elite Canadian sniper team with bolt action 50cal and they could not hit a target in the open in optimal conditions.  devs really need to over haul the engine to correct stuff like this.

An interesting recent anecdote on this one:

"Rowland, in The Stress of Battle, showed that weapon performance in the ranges (and by implication, the sales brochures) were an order of magnitude better than realistic field exercises (using lasers) and the latter were again an order of magnitude better than actual combat. For example, as a I sniper I get 95% hits at 300 metres on the range, in simulated combat I get 9% hits and in actual battle I get 1% hits."

- John Curry, History of Wargaming Project

http://wargamingco.blogspot.com/2022/03/ukraine-2022-why-are-our-wargames-wrong.html

 

[Vergeltungswaffe]

It's truly difficult to accurately factor in the "pucker" factor on performance in combat.

[db_zero]

If elite snipers miss all the time then pistol packing pixel troopers shoot like John Wick. Like the gunners in WW2 half-tracks its something you learn to live with.

I recently had a h2h game where I sent my pistol packing pixel trooper into a situation and he didn't disappoint.

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, db_zero said:

If elite snipers miss all the time then pistol packing pixel troopers shoot like John Wick. Like the gunners in WW2 half-tracks its something you learn to live with.

I recently had a h2h game where I sent my pistol packing pixel trooper into a situation and he didn't disappoint.

I remember CM1. Wanted to get rid of a King Tiger? No problem the M3 Stuart did it every time. Nonsense like this just spoils the game. Naturally, the US made 1911 superior to anything else. Once upon a time I owned one.