Removing the sick effect

[Artmann]

Ok,

CM is a good game, a good wargame with a good viewing effect, at least for the beta demo. But ... :

there is when playing German a near permanent swatiska, because the german flag uses is red with a swatiska. So I remove it by putting a dark filled rectangle in the two following files : 420.BMP and 440.BMP. I have seen past messages on that subject, they were mainly linked to the remote possibility of not being able to sell the game in germany. Don't you think that by just making such an alteration you can make your game better ? I don't really know how to handle this : I just can't supported to see this permanent red flag.

ARn

[Guest Madmatt]

In the release version the Swastica's were removed from flags and are no longer in evidence. My guess is that this was done to permit sales over seas in Germany which has IIRC the second strongest computer wargamming market.

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

And if it's NOT on CMHQ then its just GOT to be on CMHQ-ANNEX...

CMHQ http://combathq.thegamers.net

CMHQ-Annex http://cmhq.tzo.com

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

Ahhh, no more Swas-tikas? That's ashame.

For being the non-PC SOB I am, I could care less if there were Pentagrams on the flags.

(This is, of course, sarcasm!)

Oh well, darn it, darn it, darn it!

[Phoenix]

>I don't really know how to handle this : I >just can't supported to see this permanent >red flag.

Then don't buy the game.

I'm sick of all the revisionists who want to remove symbols or any reference to the Nazis.

How the hell the game will be "better" without a certain bit map is beyond me.

[Guest Big Time Software]

I too don't understand how the lack of the historically correct symbols in a historically based game (with no political satements in favor of Nazism) can be "better". In fact, if it went to a poll I would think that the majority would find that it would be "worse" because it is incorrect to put anything else in there but the Third Reich national flag.

We removed the symbols because legally we can't make one batch of CDs, with Swastikas, and sell them in Germany. We would have to make two batches, and until we manage to produce a localized German version of CM, this is not practical.

Just to make sure there is no doubt (and there should be NONE!), Big Time Software, Charles, myself, or to the best of our knowledge everybody that has contributed anything to CM, is in no way shape or form sympathetic to Nazism, its leaders, or the horrible treatment of its enemies. Personally, I grew up in a town that was roughly 20% Jewish, many of my friends were therefore Jewish, and an odd majority of my girlfriends were Jewish as well (though funny enough not my wife ). One of my best freind's father even managed to survive the camps and had the blue tatoo to prove it. So I think I can safely say I understand why some people view the Swastika as a symbol with a bit more meaning than being a part of a historically correct national flag. But I also think that tampering with historical facts is a flawed concept that has very negative implications in general. In any case, hate does not come from a black lined symbol, rather it comes from a black heart. Erase all the symbols you like, but it will not change reality.

Since you can edit out the symbols, quite easily (the opposite of "near permanent"), I don't understand why this should be an issue so long as you know that the people who made the game put the symbols there for historical accuracy rather than as a message of hate.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 05-01-2000).]

[Goanna]

I agree that historical revisionism for whatever reason should be avoided. Not allowing free and accurate distribution of historically accurate literature, games, whatever, is part of how idiots like David Irving get their start in the first place. If we can't discuss any subject, show any image, model anything we want, won't somebody come along to offer something false to fill the knowledge void?

Do I see the first unauthorized patch available for CM on the horizon to correct this forced modification?

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desert rat wannabe

[Guest MantaRay]

But in turn, I dont see what it matters if it a historical representation anyway. We arent moving our flags around or shooting from them. As long as you know that is your victory point, it doesnt matter. Plus, if it means someone from Germany won't get to play it because of the symbolism...I say dont put it in.

We cant change a social issue with a game, as Germany can't see past history enough to realize that if they want to cleanse themselves of this dredded flag, the worst thing they could do is try to forget it in the first place. I do understand that it is hurtful to a lot of people though.

The ironic thing is that the kids of today who learn about the swatiska, are learning about it from the same people who share the ideals and motives of Hitler. There seems to be very few ways to learn of it's existance in the proper context, as atleast in my experience.

I would rather this generation see it for what it is than have someone tell them how great it is, and have no contridiction from any other source. And if you think kids are learning history correctly...read your kids History books one day. You will find Napolean was President of France in 1979, but died in 1815. ( Straight from my little brothers History Book from school) and the teacher didnt even correct it, as he got the answer right on the test with President Napolean circa 1979.

Ray

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MantaRays 5 Pages

Hardcore Gamers Daily

[PanzerShark]

I can't bear to see crosses because people died a horrible death on these wooden coffins. Could every church remove these?

Ofcourse i'm being very sarcastic here, but i think when flags/symbols and so on are used correctly, there is no reason why to ban these.

Swastikas are ofcourse associated with Nazis and what they stand for, but the symbol means actualy something VERY different.

Aren't people smart enough to decide for themselves what IS the good thing to do?

Swastikas aren't "banned" in The Netherlands, yet i have never seen someone wearing one on his jacket or painted on his door.

I understand BTS got rid of them because of the selling-part, but personnaly i think it's very poor such thing is needed

[pritzl]

There was a very large debate on this very subject that just occured on iEN's web board.

I very much encourage you guys to go over there and read about it in <a href=http://lists.imagiconline.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=HotSeat|APO|s+Design+Board&number=19&DaysPrune=2&LastLogin=>Hotseat's design forum.</a>

The three threads to read are "Swastikas, No Swastikas, and Censorship."

Anyway, the discussion started because iEN was going to put swastikas on the tails of the the Luftwaffe aircraft to make them historically accurate. The debate enused...In the end, these aircraft will be depicted without the swastika.

Here was my original post regarding the use of the Swastika in a thread titled "fw1904 pics are up"

My preference is that the Luftwaffe aircraft retain ALL of their historical markings. Like it or not, this is a World War II aviation simulation. Why is there the insistance from EVERY other group of players that their chosen aircraft be represented with accurate markings? Remember the big to do over the spit or the B24? Hell, we should just have all aircraft given a flat green top, blue bottom paint job and call it good then. Lets leave out all of the markings.

There does not exist a national emblem that can be waved around with absolute pride and knowledge of never having done an immoral deed on a national scale. You know, that red star is the symbol of communism right? Stalin's regime executed millions. What about that big red meatball we have on some aircraft? The rape of Nanking, the Bataan death march, biological warfare test on Chinese villages all happened with that flag waving in the background. Lets not leave out the good ol'e stars and stripes. Anyone ever heard of Manifest destiny? It sounds remarkably similar to the German concept of Lebensraum to me. However, in the U.S. case it was Native Americans rather than Eastern Europeans. Need I mention the U.S. being the only nation to ever employ nuclear weapons in a conflict. Of course, it's well documented that the British intended to use poison gas should Germany have invaded England. I thought they signed a treaty against that. Thankfully, when the German boarders were threatened in WWII, they didn't resort to the same tactic.

Please don't misunderstand this to say that the actions of any nation are justifiable because other countries did the same thing. What is morally wrong is true regardless of who commits the act or when.

Leaving the national markings is important because it IS a reminder that people died fighting for and against those very ideologies represented by those symbols. Futher, there were truly good and truly evil people engaged in fighting for every side. It's called human nature. There are some people who are good and others who are not and national boundries are not the determining factor. It's easy to pass judgement against people when you do not have to live in the same circumstances or suffer the same possible consequences. Judgement SHOULD be passed, after all, most anyone can tell right from wrong, but it needs to be tempered with strong moral consideration and not a desire for revenge. Further, judgement should be reserved only for those guilty of a crime. If my brother commits murder, I'm not to blame, nor do I deserve to be punished for his crime; however, I would still feel shame.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with national pride (ALL of the countries mentioned above have a lot of things to be very proud of). I am saying that people should be made aware of historical fact whenever possible. Denying the truth offends me more than any symbol ever could.

pritzl

So, could BTS possibly consider a downloadable graphics patch to provide the correct historical markings?

[Guest mch]

gee...been playing with the FOW flags

for so long now....forgot about the national

ones....

Will the FOW flags work(or be issued)for

the final?Coolcolj?

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Horrido!

michael

[Guest Big Time Software]

Pritzl made some of the best points yet. The American flag, for example, means invasion, death, murder, imperialism etc. to many people around the world. Nope, it doesn't come close to the symbol of the Swastika in total context, but to some groups it very much does. And being a historian by schooling I can very well understand that this is a real feeling and, in some cases, justifiable. The Soviet symbols are probably the second most hated and feared ones from this century, just behind the Swastika. The Star of David is also not a happy symbol to the much of the Middle East, nor is the flag of Communist China seen as positive. And I just saw a report where some shop owner in Little Vietnam (San Francisco?) was boycotted (and put out of business) for having a flag from Communist Vietnam and a picture of Ho Chi Min on his back wall.

Point here is that if each and every group got to ban the symbols of another that somehow wronged them, we would have few symbols left. Probably none in fact So I am not sure why ANY group feels they should have exclusive right to have their say in such a strong way while being dennying the same rights to ever other group that has been wronged.

But... Germany has its laws, we have our practical constraints, and because of that the historically correct symbols have been removed. They already do exist, and with a simple swap of BMPs can be back in. We will most likely offer a patch for people who wish historical correctness. If we don't, I can promise you all that many others will, so no worries.

Steve

P.S. I am going to close this thread up. It is an interesting topic, but it tends to just go on and on because there is no real way to end it. Well, except for putting a lock on the thread