CM WWII titles first aid/weapon recovery, and smoke grenades

[Chibot Mk IX]

CM’s weapon recovery puzzles me.

In WWII title almost everyone can recovery a LMG,  Panzerschreck/Bazooka or a StG44 through first aid (I am happy with that), and I can understand pixeltruppen refuse to pickup an ATR or a SLR like G43 or SVT, guess they are heavy, hard to maintenance.

But I don’t understand why a rifleman refuse to recovery a SMG, do they trust their bolt action rifle more than a sub machinegun?

[Chibot Mk IX]

Another question is who carries smoke grenades and how many they carry? For a very long time I thought the Squad Leader carries one smoke grenades. But I just realized it’s not the case in recent gameplay, I was surprised to see the two man scout team carries smoke grenades. Then I checked couple scenarios in CMBN and CMRT. Yes, if you hit split team button, smoke grenades will be carried by team A lead by SL. But if you split the squad by scout team, then here is the tricky part : US and UK infantry squad , they have 3 sections. After you hit split scout team twice the smoke grenades will be on second scout team’s hand (Detachment C) , the Detachment A which has SL in do not have smoke grenades.

German infantry squad, hit split scout team once then the smoke grenades goes to the two men scout team B. Team A’s pop smoke option is grey out.

German 8 men PzG squad (Sdkfz 251) , hit the split 2-men scout team will create two teams both have smoke grenades.  

So who is carrying the smoke grenades?

[Erwin]

3 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

I don’t understand why a rifleman refuse to recovery a SMG, do they trust their bolt action rifle more than a sub machinegun?

I find that units will pick up SMG's.  I often use vehicle crews as medics and they (as well as regular inf) will PU rifles, SMG's and bazookas no problem.

However, in RL my understanding is that a rifle may be more valuable since most engagements are at ranges greater than that of a SMG.  Originally, CM2 tended to feature short range combat due to small map sizes.  As computing power has increased we are now blessed with larger maps than years ago. 

The order in which one breaks up a squad into teams (assuming the squad can break into 3 teams) can affect what each team is called and what weapons it carries.

 

[chuckdyke]

4 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

do they trust their bolt action rifle more than a sub machinegun?

From an SS Veteran they preferred the K98 above the MP40. The K98 never jammed the MP 40 picked up snow dirt accumulated too easy in the slide. Accuracy goes without saying over 100 meters the 9mm start to drop in performance dramatically. Submachine guns our more suited for urban combat.

[Freyberg]

If you want to play urban or close-quarter maps with SMGs, the best way to get your fix is to play as Soviets

[Vergeltungswaffe]

2 hours ago, Freyberg said:

If you want to play urban or close-quarter maps with SMGs, the best way to get your fix is to play as Soviets

Or with Begleitgrenadiers, and if you have FR, Volksgrenadiers or Panzer Brigade Sturmgrenadiers, too.

[A Canadian Cat]

19 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

do they trust their bolt action rifle more than a sub machinegun?

Correct. We love the SMGs but WW2 soldiers didn't really view them all that favourably.

My experience is extremely limited (only shot one mag of a 1980s SMG) but I don't blame them. I would rather have a battle rifle than and SMG any day of the week.

[Chibot Mk IX]

16 hours ago, Erwin said:

However, in RL my understanding is that a rifle may be more valuable since most engagements are at ranges greater than that of a SMG.  Originally, CM2 tended to feature short range combat due to small map sizes.  As computing power has increased we are now blessed with larger maps than years ago. 

I guess this brings up another problem , SMG in CMx2 is a little bit of OP, too accurate , too lethal

15 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

From an SS Veteran they preferred the K98 above the MP40.  

hum, interesting. Never heard this before

15 hours ago, Freyberg said:

If you want to play urban or close-quarter maps with SMGs, the best way to get your fix is to play as Soviets

Yes, but as the battle goes on, you will have less and less SMG firepower.  Ivan rifleman just don't want to pickup those PPSh  

 

[AlexUK]

I also think smgs are overpowered in the game (accuracy over 100m).

 

[chuckdyke]

9 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

hum, interesting. Never heard this before

Yes his experiences near Leningrad. Yes even in the game where the MP40 never jams. The K98 protects the MG42 the MP40 if you split them up is for an assault. Yes in the game once your SMG is at 100 meters its fire power equals an LMG and there is plenty of them. 

[Freyberg]

18 hours ago, AlexUK said:

I also think smgs are overpowered in the game (accuracy over 100m).

I dunno - 100m isn't very far in real life; and 100m is definitely the limit of the effective range of SMGs in Combat Mission.

WW2 SMGs were a heavier weapon firing a bigger bullet than modern SMGs; and even a smoothbore musket in skilled hands had some sort of accuracy at 50m, so I don't 100m range for SMGs is an exaggeration.

[chuckdyke]

29 minutes ago, Freyberg said:

SMGs were a heavier weapon firing a bigger bullet than modern SMGs

9mm para is also the caliber of SMG's now there is one but. To use 9mm designated for SMG's is not to be used for example the Browning HP even they will chamber it. The modern HK is more for police work and it is possible it uses regular 9mm para. The brass is also different you can't reload military brass as it has two flashholes. I suspect in WW2 SMG's were loaded for higher pressures than the present day civilian market.

Edited October 23, 2021 by chuckdyke

[Ts4EVER]

I think there is a weapon "hierarchy" at play here. Units will pick up a gun if it is higher in hierarchy than the one they have. It goes: Sidearm -> Rifle /SMG -> Heavy weapon

So a rifle guy won't pick up an smg, but a pistol dude will.

[chuckdyke]

3 minutes ago, Ts4EVER said:

I think there is a weapon "hierarchy" at play here.

You are on the right track, but I am not keen to test it. It could also to pick up the weapon the squad is missing. Ammunition also plays a role possibly. 

[Ithikial_AU]

Yes, generally pistol ammo also crosses over to the SMG, particularly the 9mm variety for the Germans. Picking up a weapon your squad has no ammo ready at the go is generally not a positive move. Plus the time it takes to strip your incapacitated buddy of all his magazines. I believe total weight held by the squad will also come into play. I remember playing as the Germans in CMSF2 and loading up on Panzerfaust3 and extra rockets and ammo. Essentially my pixeltruppen were walking around like this:

Great if your squads needs to mount a static defence, garbage for any form of movement. When my MG3 pixeltruppen went down, the others would not pick up the LMG given the total weight held by the remaining mobile squad members was already too high.

One little wish I've had is for the map type as listed in the editor would play some influence on what weapons are picked up. If in the editor the scenario is set on a 'City' map then the pixeltruppen would be more likely to make the effort to pick up SMG's and other close quarter weapons rather than bolt action rifles. Open terrain, then maybe leading more the other way. This is more of an issue for the WW2 titles where it's a bit more extreme given the lack of everyone having assault rifles.

[chuckdyke]

Four clips from the Walther P38 is required to load one magazine of the MP40, all right you would have about three rounds to spare. Not worth the effort in the game I think. 

[MikeyD]

There's SMGs and then there's SMGs. a PPSh-41 has a far more powerful round than a Thompson smg. Its halfway to assault rifle status. A Thompson .45 cal round firing at range has the arc of a fire hose.

[chuckdyke]

8 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

A Thompson .45 cal round firing at range has the arc of a fire hose.

The .45 ACP a close up round. The Russian round is not far more powerful. It depends to which specifications you load the cartridges. For argument sake a quick look it is about even stevens (Around 500J). The wound channel of the .45 ACP is where its reputation comes from. At 50 meters it is still keeps its accuracy, I owned once upon a time a 1911. For urban situations look when you need to shoot further than 50 meters? 

[Bulletpoint]

On 10/22/2021 at 4:41 PM, Chibot Mk IX said:

I guess this brings up another problem , SMG in CMx2 is a little bit of OP, too accurate , too lethal

I find they are too lethal at long range, but not enough at short range.

[chuckdyke]

11 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I find they are too lethal at long range, but not enough at short range.

Can you give an example which ranges you talk about? Is it the accuracy or stopping power. I don't think stopping power plays a role in the game. 

[StieliAlpha]

On 10/23/2021 at 10:59 AM, Freyberg said:

I dunno - 100m isn't very far in real life; and 100m is definitely the limit of the effective range of SMGs in Combat Mission.

WW2 SMGs were a heavier weapon firing a bigger bullet than modern SMGs; and even a smoothbore musket in skilled hands had some sort of accuracy at 50m, so I don't 100m range for SMGs is an exaggeration.

IIRC, the training range length for the Uzi in the Bundeswehr was in my time 20 or 25m.

The problem is to keep the SMG (or any automatic gun) on target. You may score a hit with the first bullet on long distance, but the rest of the burst sprays wide. The longer the distance, the wider.

That’s why, obviously, the comparison with a muzzle loaders (rifled as well as smoothbores), is not appropriate. With those you have only one shot.

And to close the circle: Yes, in competitions you normally shoot muzzle loaders on the 50m range.

Edited November 1, 2021 by StieliAlpha

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On 10/26/2021 at 6:58 AM, MikeyD said:

There's SMGs and then there's SMGs. a PPSh-41 has a far more powerful round than a Thompson smg. Its halfway to assault rifle status. A Thompson .45 cal round firing at range has the arc of a fire hose.

PPSh-41 is also the most lethal roomsweeper in any of the games.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Bufo]

9 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

PPSh-41 is also the most lethal roomsweeper in any of the games.

The drum can hold 71 rounds, so it's no wonder.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

When I'm playing CM:A it's the PPSh's that I always want my units to recover.....I don't much care about the DPs, Brens or AKs, just don't leave those 'urban chainsaws' behind. 

Here's one I made earlier:

That's the product of about five minutes fighting, mostly with PPSh's (on both sides) at point-blank range! 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Chibot Mk IX]

On 10/26/2021 at 1:36 AM, Ithikial_AU said:

 I believe total weight held by the squad will also come into play.

It doesn't look like the total weight plays a role in weapon recovery. 

 

A soviet inf sqd depleted their ammunition sent to first aid a squad of fallen sub-machine gunner , two riflemen provide first aid 

 

they refuse to pick up any SMG , they didn't even bother with to pickup 7.62mm x 25 ammo. Only 8 hand grenade recovered 

 

Here is different story, a German Panzerschreck team provided first aid to a sturm squad. They have total 22 rounds rocket on their back, it's so heavy that they can barely walk. But in the end, they picked up two MP44 plus enough clips

 

 

 

 

Quote

When my MG3 pixeltruppen went down, the others would not pick up the LMG given the total weight held by the remaining mobile squad members was already too high.

I will do some test in CMSF2/CMBS/CMCW later. But I think in modern title pixeltruppen will refuse to take 7.62mm LMG. Their pickup priority are Javelin , RPG and LAWs 

 

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BTW, I would love to see more unauthorized weapon in pixeltruppen's hand. BFC has already given extra BAR to US Inf Sqd and Beretta SMG to Germany sqd in CMFI. Wish one day we will see MP40 carried by regular Soviet infantry squad and PPSh in Germany pixeltruppen's hand