Steel Beasts vs Combat Mission t-72 visibility test

[The_Capt]

5 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

At 16 minutes and 15 seconds we reacquired the target and opened up.....The first round went laughably high, the second fell just a couple of meters short: 

It sounded like we injured the M60 commander.....Serves him right for cheating! 

But then we lost sight of him behind the dust. 

We reacuired him at 18 minutes and 50 seconds, the gunner was on the ball and fired almost immediately:

Causing us to immediately lose the target again:

But there was a very satisfying clang! 

At 11 minutes and 2 seconds we reacquire the M60 once again, there's a neat hole in the centre of its glacis:

The tank commander isn't sticking his head out any more.....Probably because most of it is splattered all over the engine deck, I suspect! 

Our first round goes high, but our second finds the mark and by 11 minutes and 45 seconds it is all over.....The M60 is a blazing hulk:

There were no survivors. 

 

You know out of all of this, the fact that the M60 didn't see them either is interesting.  Shows the rough parity we have seen elsewhere.  Was that an A1?

[com-intern]

2 minutes ago, Hapless said:

14 hours ago, dbsapp said:

 

Good luck figuring out if that's an enemy tank. Remember, you've got to decide RIGHT NOW and if you get it wrong you'll either DIE or KILL YOUR FRIENDS. No pressure.

First I say hello all,

I have recently returned to CM after a long hiatus and have much enjoyed Cold War. Hats off to Battlefront for the development completion.

Hapless, I believe this will be determined by tactical situation. In CM terms friendly and enemy board side and mission type. Hence that a Soviet assault you would clearly engage the target !

 

@dbsappDBSapp, I appreciate your commitment to the game in testing things. Individuals who do test are invaluable to the community. But I have a thought about your test. As the ardent CM knights have mentioned the game  is not a shooting range design. I have a strong faith that the game does not work correctly when units are spawned “in vision” of each other. Since the game designer (Charles) would assume that one force would move into view. Real combat has no teleportation unlike CM can. So perhaps test with M60 moving rather than not moving.

 

CM knights, I will say that you are first to bring up the phrase “broken”.

 

Have a good morning.

[Artkin]

Is this a self promotion thread or do people actually care about the actual issue being raised ? I posted practical evidence, turns from an active game.

Turn 019: Four T64A in overwatch, in woods, focused on the two little treelines ahead. My leftmost T64 is struck by a dragon. then my other left tank (Right section) takes a hit from a M150 seconds later. The view was perfect for all of my T64s.

 

It shoots, and then scoots away. None of my T64 ever saw it.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

8 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

You know out of all of this, the fact that the M60 didn't see them either is interesting.  Shows the rough parity we have seen elsewhere.  Was that an A1?

Yep, as I said M60A1 vs T-72 'Ural'.....Both crews were Regular, Normal, 0.

Nothing about this singularly lengthy single test particularly bothered me, nor did it prove or disprove anything.....Except that your units will do a lot better if you 'use them'. 

Had I put a tight Target Armour Arc on that M60 after we first acquired it, this would have ended much sooner.  Indeed, had I too opened up when I realised the Yanks were cheating, I suspect the spotting would have been more even that it was.

However one thing did really impress me.....The way that T-72 soaked up or deflected the two 105mm sabot rounds that hit it, just as it should (with a bit of luck).  I actually titled the partial penetration image 'The End', because I thought it was, but the CM model is properly rugged and my crew got a little bit lucky.

I must reiterate that throughout the whole process it felt to me like the game was screaming "You are a human being Sarge (allegedly at least).....Use your divinely sourced powers and kill that ****ing tank!". 

[Artkin]

What about the shturms? They are so useless it's incredible that they're even in the game. I see a shturm, I see a kill....

[The_Capt]

8 minutes ago, com-intern said:

First I say hello all,

I have recently returned to CM after a long hiatus and have much enjoyed Cold War. Hats off to Battlefront for the development completion.

Hapless, I believe this will be determined by tactical situation. In CM terms friendly and enemy board side and mission type. Hence that a Soviet assault you would clearly engage the target !

 

@dbsappDBSapp, I appreciate your commitment to the game in testing things. Individuals who do test are invaluable to the community. But I have a thought about your test. As the ardent CM knights have mentioned the game  is not a shooting range design. I have a strong faith that the game does not work correctly when units are spawned “in vision” of each other. Since the game designer (Charles) would assume that one force would move into view. Real combat has no teleportation unlike CM can. So perhaps test with M60 moving rather than not moving.

 

CM knights, I will say that you are first to bring up the phrase “broken”.

 

Have a good morning.

Gotta, say, well spoken.  As a CM "knight" I think the part that you might have missed is "history of behavior" which in this case is long and loud.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

11 minutes ago, Artkin said:

Is this a self promotion thread or do people actually care about the actual issue being raised ? I posted practical evidence, turns from an active game.

Which scenario is that please.....Is that 'The Gravel Pit' in the bcakground? 

Pretty sure I played this yesterday and had a lot of fun in an insane pointblank knifefight on the wooded hill out of shot to the left in your images (Hill 375?).

As a possible answer to your spotting issue I'd posit a combination of thermal sights on the Dragon (which is possibly a little inappropriate as they were only really intended for night time use) and C2.  The AI shares information too, so I suspect it knew where to look fo your tanks, because of the (possibly dubious) spots from the Dragons.

In my own game I was spotted first by the M150 TOW vehicles, but my T-64s shrugged off the impacts and nailed several of them before they retreated.....I had the whole company parked along the ridge and we pelted the **** out of them!

Edited October 16, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[The_Capt]

5 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Yep, as I said M60A1 vs T-72 'Ural'.....Both crews were Regular, Normal, 0.

Nothing about this singularly lengthy single test particularly bothered me, nor did it prove or disprove anything.....Except that your units will do a lot better if you 'use them'. 

Had I put a tight Target Armour Arc on that M60 after we first acquired it, this would have ended much sooner.  Indeed, had I too opened up when I realised the Yanks were cheating, I suspect the spotting would have been more even that it was.

However one thing did really impress me.....The way that T-72 soaked up or deflected the two 105mm sabot rounds that hit it, just as it should (with a bit of luck).  I actually titled the partial penetration image 'The End', because I thought it was, but the CM model is properly rugged and my crew got a little bit lucky.

I must reiterate that throughout the whole process it felt to me like the game was screaming "You are a human being Sarge (allegedly at least).....Use your divinely sourced powers and kill that ****ing tank!". 

Soviet armor is pretty tough across the board, they were no push overs.

It is interesting that once we upscale, say go to a platoon, spotting for both sides goes way up.  Then if you go to company it goes even higher.

2000m has to be on the outer edge of what these tanks can see individually.

[Artkin]

3 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Which scenario is that please.....Is that 'The Gravel Pit' in the bcakground? 

Pretty sure I played this yesterday and had a lot of fun in an insane pointblank knifefight on the wooded hill out of shot to the left in your images (Hill 375?).

As a possible answer to your spotting issue I'd posit a combination of thermal sights on the Dragon (which is possibly a little inappropriate as they were only really intended for night time use) and C2.  The AI shares information too, so I suspect it knew where to look fo your tanks, because of the (possibly dubious) spots from the Dragons.

In my own game I was spotted first by the M150 TOW vehicles, but my T-64s shrugged off the impacts and nailed several of them before they retreated.....I had the whole company parked along the ridge and we pelted the **** out of them!

Grieshof meet and greet. I posted my turns on this thread.
I understand the dragons can sneak up and get shots off, but the m150 drove right into view and the tanks didn't see it at all. I have more. I am skimming through my files.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I'll d/l your turns and look.

[Artkin]

Check 019 onward, but the ones before set the foundation for the story.... 021, 023 were nasty ones.

 

Almost done with his game of cards... (He didnt spot the M60 while his platoon (Of four tanks) was getting shredded)

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Artkin

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Are those PBEM turns?  Not too sure what to do with them. 

[Artkin]

1:23:00 in position

1:22:00 Good and half spots

Nice lower front hull hit...

 

This T64 spent a minute staring directly at enemies and never saw them

 

This BMP1 is moving fast up a hill, with infantry on the left on "hunt" and "quick"

Somehow sees something on the left without getting a confirmed contact:

But I have infantry moving much closer to that location......

Then on the right, my squad which was split and on hunt gets shredded by a M113A2 which was reversing (not facing my troops) through the woods.

My guys should have spotted that M113 way way quicker than it saw my men. You've got this twenty ton hunk of metal reversing through the woods running over **** going BRMMMMM and it somehow ****s my guys first. My sniper let one loose and then the apc blasted everyone one literal second later.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Artkin

[Artkin]

5 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Are those PBEM turns?  Not too sure what to do with them. 

Yep, I have the password included, put them in your incoming emails folder, then find by clicking "saved games" on the menu

Edited October 16, 2021 by Artkin

[Artkin]

It takes this T64A over 30 seconds to acquire a M150 moving on slow up a road toward us. The M150 fires at 1:19:48, and it is acquired at 1:19:27. This seems normal??? The tank is facing forward the entire time, the driver can even see it.

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Artkin

[MOS:96B2P]

12 minutes ago, Artkin said:

Then on the right, my squad which was split and on hunt gets shredded by a M113A2 which was reversing (not facing my troops) through the woods.

My guys should have spotted that M113 way way quicker than it saw my men.

I think this is a PBEM?  Could your opponent have just been area firing?  Maybe the M113 AI never did actually have a confirmed or tentative spot on your troops.    

[Sgt.Squarehead]

1 hour ago, The_Capt said:

So in an attempt to advance things.  Here is a scenario file for you that better reflects the scale CM is meant to simulate...go ahead and hit play.  Now what is the difference between this file and yours (oh, I used M60A1s cause the A3 with thermals is simply too easy)?

This test is more than a bit dubious dude.....There are 17 M60A1 RISE+ and only 14 T-72 'Ural's! 

By the simple expedient of giving my T-72s a Target Armour Arc I still ensured the T-72s both spotted and fired first.....Sadly our gunnery was truly awful and the return salvoes laid waste to our formation! 

However on the second run however my 14 T-72s defeated all of the M60s! 

I'm just not seeing anything in CM:CW that screams at me the way certain bits of CM:BS did (and I've mostly learned to live with those TBH). 

4 minutes ago, Artkin said:

It takes this T64A over 30 seconds to acquire a M150 moving on slow up a road toward us. The M150 fires at 1:19:48, and it is acquired at 1:19:27. This seems normal???

Still figuring out how to look at it.....I'm wondering why you don't have your tanks on a Cover Arc?  To me this means that your TCs will be wasting their time looking for targets in the 80% of their potential FOV that you don't give a **** about! 

Your gunners just won't see anything until the TC's lay them onto a target (Put a box on your head, punch a drinking straw through it to use as a sight and then walk around your house for a bit.....See how it goes). 

[Artkin]

4 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I think this is a PBEM?  Could your opponent have just been area firing?  Maybe the M113 AI never did actually have a confirmed or tentative spot on your troops.    

Nope, it was a four round burst and that was it

[holoween]

7 minutes ago, Artkin said:

It takes this T64A over 30 seconds to acquire a M150 moving on slow up a road toward us. The M150 fires at 1:19:48, and it is acquired at 1:19:27. This seems normal??? The tank is facing forward the entire time, the driver can even see it.

 

This is perfectly normal.

The enemy is moving forwards so no its not giving away much by moving and your tank has to cover and spot in quite busy ground. The crew is also nervous and has no contacts to anyone so it becomes quite easy to miss something.

This is a great example of CM doing exactly what it should

[Artkin]

2 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

This test is more than a bit dubious dude.....There are 17 M60A1 RISE+ and only 14 T-72 'Ural's! 

By the simple expedient of giving my T-72s a Target Armour Arc I still ensured the T-72s both spotted and fired first.....Sadly our gunnery was truly awful and the return salvoes laid waste to our formation! 

However on the second run however my 14 T-72s defeated all of the M60s! 

I'm just not seeing anything in CM:CW that screams at me the way certain bits of CM:BS did (and I've mostly learned to live with those TBH). 

Still figuring out how to look at it.....I'm wondering why you don't have your tanks on a Cover Arc?  To me this means that your TCs will be wasting their time looking for targets in the 80% of their potential FOV that you don't give a **** about! 

Your gunners just won't see anything until the TC's lay them onto a target (Put a box on your head, punch a drinking straw through it to use as a sight and then walk around your house for a bit.....See how it goes). 

I thought it was decided that cover arcs dont affect spotting, they only affect the turret direction, which is extremely important in every title for differing reasons. In the modern titles (Especially) you want to be the first to shoot, and in the earlier titles you can get away with angling armor and peeking corners.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

5 minutes ago, Artkin said:

I thought it was decided that cover arcs dont affect spotting, they only affect the turret direction, which is extremely important in every title for differing reasons. In the modern titles (Especially) you want to be the first to shoot, and in the earlier titles you can get away with angling armor and peeking corners.

Run @The_Capt's 'slightly dubious test' with & without Target Armour Arcs.....Draw your own conclusions. 

PS - My suspicion would be that it determines the main focus of the commander's primary optic.....Finding targets is his job, not the gunner's, so it matters very little which way the turret is pointed if you have a cupola/panoramic sight.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Artkin]

8 minutes ago, holoween said:

This is perfectly normal.

The enemy is moving forwards so no its not giving away much by moving and your tank has to cover and spot in quite busy ground. The crew is also nervous and has no contacts to anyone so it becomes quite easy to miss something.

This is a great example of CM doing exactly what it should

These bushes are lower than the driver's viewing port and all three crewmembers have a clean view to the target.

This is frankly ridiculous. I get better spotting in CMRT tanks than with the CMCW.

 

Edit: the T64A moved from 00 to 55 seconds into this position

Edited October 16, 2021 by Artkin

[MOS:96B2P]

10 minutes ago, Artkin said:

Nope, it was a four round burst and that was it

A four round burst probably doesn't prove it one way or the other.  A Human can select Target for 15 seconds of area fire.  I often do this to conserve ammo when area firing since I'm basically guessing where the OpFor is.  With the M113 reversing it might have lost LOF and stopped shooting for that reason.  Not saying your wrong but since your playing a human ....... the human may have something to do with it.  

Edited October 16, 2021 by MOS:96B2P

[Artkin]

1 minute ago, MOS:96B2P said:

A four round burst probably doesn't prove it one way or the other.  A Human can select Target for 15 seconds of area fire.  I often do this to conserve ammo when area firing since I'm basically guessing where the OpFr is.  With the M113 reversing it might have lost LOF and stopped shooting for that reason.  Not saying your wrong but since your playing a human ....... the human may have something to do with it.  

Right, but he would have kept firing unless he was out of ammo totally and was reloading. Even still, I believe your troops will continue to fire to compensate for the reloading.

From this I ruled out the human part of it. It looked like the APC got spooked and insta spotted my guys after the SVD opened up

Edited October 16, 2021 by Artkin

[Sgt.Squarehead]

4 minutes ago, Artkin said:

These bushes are lower than the driver's viewing port and all three crewmembers have a clean view to the target.

I don't think it's the low bushes that are the issue.....It looks to me like the commander's cupola of the tank on the right may be obscured by low branches. 

Either way it sucks that an issue like that ruins a PBEM game for you, that always leaves a bitter taste.....However I think the balance of evidence presented in this and other threads deomonstrates that broadly there isn't an inexplicable or game breaking issue with spotting in CM:CW.

Would it be possible for you to replay the turns using Target Armour Arcs as an experiment?