Official US Army training film on countering the T-62

[John Kettler]

Never saw this 1977 gem in my entire career as a Soviet Threat Analyst, a career which began in 1978. Not only does this show the ins and outs of the T-62 and how it operates with BMP-1s and AT-3 armed BRDMs, but it shows US capabilities, too, including the hulldown disparity, telltale reload indicator, low T-62 ROF and more. On the US end, everything from tanks to tacair and scatterable mines (by automatic minelayer or helicopter dispenser) are all there to see. Nor is the terrain the sere NTC, but someplace very European looking. Not only is there lots of great footage, but some remarkable model work, too. Of particular intetest to players will be the comments on open fire ranges, engagememt philoposophies, ammo selection and other game useful groggery. 

Offhand, I can't think of a better intro to the real world which CMCW seeks to depict.
 

Regards,

John Kettler

[chuckdyke]

He explains it very well. I was impressed the louvre system may cause a mobility kill by HE from even mortar shells. 

[John Kettler]

9 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

He explains it very well. I was impressed the louvre system may cause a mobility kill by HE from even mortar shells. 

AFV overheating has long been an issue, and agonizing compromises have had to be made. Nor was it always the engine. A little looking will reveal, for example, DAK Panzer crews fighting with the turret doors open!  I have an account from Kursk in which the T-34 driver passed out in the buttoned tank from heat and inhaling cordite fumes. They violated combat regs (a big deal) to revive him and get back into the fight.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited September 28, 2021 by John Kettler

[chuckdyke]

7 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

AFV overheating has long been an issue,

The JS3 for this reason possibly was used in the Sinai more as a mobile pillbox during the 1956 war. The Israeli Shermans were far more comfortable.

[Centurian52]

Good explanation, and I loved the stop motion animations

[John Kettler]

Here is the natural building block for the US player in CMCW, for this is the training film on the combined arms team. It teaches core tactical principles that, if violated, will pretty much ensure defeat. Though the film looks horrible initially, the actual res is tolerable. Something which might bear looking into is the racial mix in the game vs reality. Frankly, though, am having a tough time finding close range imagery of US infantry in game so I can tell whether there even is an issue. Nor is this situation helped by having rocky vision today.
 

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited September 28, 2021 by John Kettler

[John Kettler]

And here we have a Cold War BAOR vet describing how the Soviet MRR would attack, drawing on a BAOR training film, some of which is terrifying. For example, a 100 gun Soviet 40 minute artillery prep would be 12,000 rounds, based on a rate of 2 rpm per gun. Let me provide a frame of reference. During the Vietnam War, North Vietnamese bombardment of An Loc was a staggering to us 1200 rounds per day. We're talking 10 times that, delivered in only 40 minutes. Some of the Soviet artillery footage in the impact zone will make you wonder how anything could've survived. The timing and sequence of force buildup as the MRR is fascinating, and this video is set later in time, so that instead of T-62s, the Soviets have the T-64, though mercifully not the AT-8 armed T-64B. People with epilepsy and other flicker triggered conditions should be aware that some of the Soviet imagery is full of flickering. The comments verge on incredible, for most of them are either by vets or children of vets who would've been in the thick of things.
 

Regards,

John Kettler

[IICptMillerII]

Matsimus is a British Army vet, but was not actively serving during the Cold War or part of BAOR. 

[John Kettler]

15 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

Matsimus is a British Army vet, but was not actively serving during the Cold War or part of BAOR. 

That's not what he says. He talks like someone who was right on the path of Third Shock Army and, I believe, specifically mentioned being near Hanover. The Hanover Autobahn would've been the axis of advance for Third Shock Army.

Regards,

John. Kettler

[John Kettler]

At 1:49 here, he says he left the British Army in 2011. The video is from 2018, and when he made it, he was training to be a 105 mm howitzer gunner reservist in the Canadian Army.
 

And here, he shows himself in Afghanistan, apparently as the Driver of a Warrior IFV. Outfit? 7th Armoured Division!
 

Regards,

John Kettler

[Erwin]

Interesting.  He's certainly no poseur like some we have...

[IICptMillerII]

Yeah so just for the record, again, he was not in the British army during the Cold War, and was not in the BAOR. And, at no point in the video does he claim to have been in the BAOR, or staring down the Soviets in Germany personally. 

[John Kettler]

11 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

Yeah so just for the record, again, he was not in the British army during the Cold War, and was not in the BAOR. And, at no point in the video does he claim to have been in the BAOR, or staring down the Soviets in Germany personally. 

Clearly, after looking at fresh info, he wasn't in the BAOR, but the key to this, I believe, is how strongly he identified with how things would've been to be living in the path of, and having to fight, the mighty 3rd Shock Army. His reactions are genuine, and he strongly relates to the plight of his unit, 7th Armored Division, had the balloon gone up in the FRG. The 7th Armored Division was, for many years, part of the BAOR. My sense of it now is that he never really had any sort of handle on how scary things were doing the Cold War for the units directly in the path of the expected Soviet onslaught. What he learned really rattled his cage. Would it comfort him to know that the BAOR was the old NATO ground unit that truly concerned Red Army planners?

https://www.baor-locations.org/historybaor.aspx.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[Combatintman]

31 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

Clearly, after looking at fresh info, he wasn't in the BAOR, but the key to this, I believe, is how strongly he identified with how things would've been to be living in the path of, and having to fight, the mighty 3rd Shock Army. His reactions are genuine, and he strongly relates to the plight of his unit, 7th Armored Division, had the balloon gone up in the FRG. The 7th Armored Division was, for many years, part of the BAOR. My sense of it now is that he never really had any sort of handle on how scary things were doing the Cold War for the units directly in the path of the expected Soviet onslaught. What he learned really rattled his cage. Would it comfort him to know that the BAOR was the old NATO ground unit that truly concerned Red Army planners?

https://www.baor-locations.org/historybaor.aspx.html

Regards,

John Kettler

The Soviets did not rate 1 (BR) Corps at all before the Falklands War, in fact 1 (BR) Corps was deemed weak by the Soviets up until then.  In the early to mid 1970s it only had three Armoured Divisions (1, 2 and 4) with only two brigades each.  In 1978 a third division (3) came across to Germany and each of the brigades were renamed Task Forces (1 Armoured Division as an example Task Force A and B - 2 Armoured Division Task Force C and D etc).  In the whole 1 (BR) Corps AO, which incidentally did not include Hannover, there were eight so-called armoured/mechanised task forces and one non-mechanised infantry task force (5 Field Force).  In 1982, the 2nd Armoured Division was moved back to the UK and became an Infantry Division with one regular and two reserve brigades with a 1 (BR) Corps rear area security role.  The 1st, 2nd and 3rd Armoured Divisions remained in Germany and by now the title brigade vice task force was back in favour.  The 7th Armoured Division, for what its worth, ceased to exist in 1958 so it missed most of the Cold War.

Don't start me on the 'mighty' 3 Shock Army because it wasn't.  It only had three divisions for most of its existence which is nothing compared to the tasks that were envisaged for it.

Apart from that, you're absolutely right.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Combatintman

[John Kettler]

And where would we be without a discussion of that Red Army staple--the Meeting Engagement? Here's is the course on that, as told through a notion pre-battle brief by the Komandir of the lead MRB of the entire Soviet offensive. Not only is there a thorough discussion delivered through the Socratic method, but the actions of the MRB Advance Guard are placed into a much broader context of MRR and MRD. The tactical doctrine and drills I once could recite instantly are all there, prime fodder, might I add, for scenario designers. Per the credits, though an official US Army AV product,  the British did this training film.
 

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

13 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

The Soviets did not rate 1 (BR) Corps at all before the Falklands War, in fact 1 (BR) Corps was deemed weak by the Soviets up until then.  In the early to mid 1970s it only had three Armoured Divisions (1, 2 and 4) with only two brigades each.  In 1978 a third division (3) came across to Germany and each of the brigades were renamed Task Forces (1 Armoured Division as an example Task Force A and B - 2 Armoured Division Task Force C and D etc).  In the whole 1 (BR) Corps AO, which incidentally did not include Hannover, there were eight so-called armoured/mechanised task forces and one non-mechanised infantry task force (5 Field Force).  In 1982, the 2nd Armoured Division was moved back to the UK and became an Infantry Division with one regular and two reserve brigades with a 1 (BR) Corps rear area security role.  The 1st, 2nd and 3rd Armoured Divisions remained in Germany and by now the title brigade vice task force was back in favour.  The 7th Armoured Division, for what its worth, ceased to exist in 1958 so it missed most of the Cold War.

Don't start me on the 'mighty' 3 Shock Army because it wasn't.  It only had three divisions for most of its existence which is nothing compared to the tasks that were envisaged for it.

Apart from that, you're absolutely right.

Here's the OOB. For the time period of CMCW, it was indeed mighty--3 x Guards Tank Division and 1 x Motorized Rifle Division. Core force only!

https://www.liquisearch.com/3rd_shock_army/service_in_germany/cold_war_order_of_battle

 

Cold War Order of Battle

For most of the 1970s and 1980s the Army was composed from the following major formations:

• 10th Guards Uralsko-Lvovskaya Tank Division
• 12th Guards Tank Division
• 47th Guards Tank Division
• 207th Motor Rifle Division (not a Guards unit according to Feskov et al.)

Here's what else was in the mix via subordination to 3rd Shock Army. From above link.

Formation and units subordinate to Army

• 792 individual company of special purpose (SpetsNaz) (Cochstedt)
• 115 individual tank regiment (Quedlinburg)
• 899 independent landing-assault battalion (Burg)
• 232 independent battalion of protection and security (Magdeburg)
• 178 individual helicopter regiment (Borstel)
• 440 individual helicopter regiment (Borstel)
• 296 independent helicopter squadron (Mahlwinkel)
• 36 missile brigade (Altengrabow)
• 448 missile brigade (Born)
• 49 antiaircraft-missile brigade (Planken)
• 385 artillery brigade (Planken)
• 451 individual anti-tank artillery battalion (Magdeburg)
• 254 individual radio-technical regiment (Cochstedt)
• 15 independent radio-technical battalion (Magdeburg)
• 10 independent battalion radio-electronic combat (Stahnsdorf)
• 105 independent communications regiment (Magdeburg)
• 457 independent radio relay cable battalion (Magdeurg)
• 323 independent engineer battalion (Magdeburg)
• 36 Łódź engineer pontoon bridge regiment (Magdeburg)
• 2 independent battalion of chemical protection (Burg)
• 42 brigades of materiel supply (Magdeburg)
• 298 independent equip. maint. and recovery battalion (Schönebeck)
• 302 independent equip. maint. and recovery battalion (Schönebeck)
• (?) military hospital (Magdeburg)
  
  
  I claim no particular expertise ref the BAOR, because it wasn't my principal area of concern. There was more than enough to deal with in the US sectors. The exception was aerial warfare, for which I had a huge two panel map of East Germany with every single Soviet and East German air base on it, together with the aircraft breakdown, every fixed SAM site, every air defense HQ and major command center on it.
  
  Regards,
  
  John Kettler

[Sgt.Squarehead]

2 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

Yeah so just for the record, again, he was not in the British army during the Cold War, and was not in the BAOR. And, at no point in the video does he claim to have been in the BAOR, or staring down the Soviets in Germany personally. 

I don't think they're really listening any more mate.....It happens. 

[IICptMillerII]

Its ok, its more for the benefit of the passers by and new forum members who do not understand the full context. Wouldn't want them led astray!

[Combatintman]

6 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Here's the OOB. For the time period of CMCW, it was indeed mighty--3 x Guards Tank Division and 1 x Motorized Rifle Division. Core force only!

https://www.liquisearch.com/3rd_shock_army/service_in_germany/cold_war_order_of_battle

 

Cold War Order of Battle

For most of the 1970s and 1980s the Army was composed from the following major formations:

• 10th Guards Uralsko-Lvovskaya Tank Division
• 12th Guards Tank Division
• 47th Guards Tank Division
• 207th Motor Rifle Division (not a Guards unit according to Feskov et al.)

Here's what else was in the mix via subordination to 3rd Shock Army. From above link.

Formation and units subordinate to Army

• 792 individual company of special purpose (SpetsNaz) (Cochstedt)
• 115 individual tank regiment (Quedlinburg)
• 899 independent landing-assault battalion (Burg)
• 232 independent battalion of protection and security (Magdeburg)
• 178 individual helicopter regiment (Borstel)
• 440 individual helicopter regiment (Borstel)
• 296 independent helicopter squadron (Mahlwinkel)
• 36 missile brigade (Altengrabow)
• 448 missile brigade (Born)
• 49 antiaircraft-missile brigade (Planken)
• 385 artillery brigade (Planken)
• 451 individual anti-tank artillery battalion (Magdeburg)
• 254 individual radio-technical regiment (Cochstedt)
• 15 independent radio-technical battalion (Magdeburg)
• 10 independent battalion radio-electronic combat (Stahnsdorf)
• 105 independent communications regiment (Magdeburg)
• 457 independent radio relay cable battalion (Magdeurg)
• 323 independent engineer battalion (Magdeburg)
• 36 Łódź engineer pontoon bridge regiment (Magdeburg)
• 2 independent battalion of chemical protection (Burg)
• 42 brigades of materiel supply (Magdeburg)
• 298 independent equip. maint. and recovery battalion (Schönebeck)
• 302 independent equip. maint. and recovery battalion (Schönebeck)
• (?) military hospital (Magdeburg)
  
  
  I claim no particular expertise ref the BAOR, because it wasn't my principal area of concern. There was more than enough to deal with in the US sectors. The exception was aerial warfare, for which I had a huge two panel map of East Germany with every single Soviet and East German air base on it, together with the aircraft breakdown, every fixed SAM site, every air defense HQ and major command center on it.
  
  Regards,
  
  John Kettler

Well according to Feskov - a source cited at your link - 207 (Guards or otherwise) Motor Rifle Division was not in GSFG in 1979 although I grant that it is a difficult work to pick through and other reporting suggests it was in GSFG. 

From 1964 to 1983 (and CMCW only covers 1979-1982) 3 Combined Arms/Shock Army comprised three divisions - It got its fourth division, 7 Guards Tank Division, in 1983 - a year after the period covered by CMCW.

Otherwise whether you claim special knowledge or not of BAOR - if you're not going to claim special knowledge then it might be helpful if you caveat sweeping statements on the subject like "would it comfort him to know that the [sic] BAOR was the old NATO ground unit that truly concerned Red Army [sic] planners?" with a qualifier to the effect, I haven't a clue why I'm saying this.  

[Centurian52]

Since these are pouring into my YouTube recommendations now (thanks for that), here's another How To Fight video featuring Soviet ATGMs

[MikeyD]

Why do US tanks have those tall commander's cupolas (subturrets)? Because of the much-publicized large max depression angle of US guns. With your tank on the back side of a slope and the gun at max depression the buttoned commander would have difficulty seeing over the vehicle's nose (especially M60A2). In the '73 war Israel complained that the commanders subturret tended to shear off when hit, decapitating the tank commander. The M48A5 in the game discards the old subturret for the Israeli Urdan commander's cupola and pintle-mounted mg. So when the videos talk about 3 degrees depression versus 10 degrees depression there were trade-off to be made.

[John Kettler]

21 hours ago, Combatintman said:

Well according to Feskov - a source cited at your link - 207 (Guards or otherwise) Motor Rifle Division was not in GSFG in 1979 although I grant that it is a difficult work to pick through and other reporting suggests it was in GSFG. 

From 1964 to 1983 (and CMCW only covers 1979-1982) 3 Combined Arms/Shock Army comprised three divisions - It got its fourth division, 7 Guards Tank Division, in 1983 - a year after the period covered by CMCW.

Otherwise whether you claim special knowledge or not of BAOR - if you're not going to claim special knowledge then it might be helpful if you caveat sweeping statements on the subject like "would it comfort him to know that the [sic] BAOR was the old NATO ground unit that truly concerned Red Army [sic] planners?" with a qualifier to the effect, I haven't a clue why I'm saying this.  

Combatintman,

That chart is a head-breaker for me visually, I don't read Russian, and have never known of Feskov until it came up via the link I posted. Ref Red Army generals' attitude toward and respect for BAOR, there were several times I saw such things mentioned, but offhand, the one that comes to mind was in Suvorov/Rezun Inside Soviet Military Intelligence. He was in the GRU following being, successively, the CO of a Motorized Rifle Company (BTR-60PB) and a Tank Company (T-55). Was handpicked to work in the Carpathian Military District HQ. Believe the combination of British professionalism, strong training, excellent gunnery and big nasty Chieftains, whose every movement was reported by agents of the Carpathian Military District, were responsible for that respect/concern.

Regards,

JOhn Kettler

 

[Combatintman]

Suvorov's writings are at best debatable - in fact Glantz, who is reputable scholar of WW2 is very critical of Suvorov's writings about that war.  Others are, albeit less so, critical of his works on the Cold War era.  As an intelligence professional I certainly do not assess Suvorov as credible.  As to agents of the Carpathian Military District reporting every movement of Chieftains - a quick look at a map has to tell you that this is a dubious claim.  Image below shows the distance between the HQ of the Carpathian Military District and HQ 1 (BR) Corps.

 

That sort of data would more likely be tracked by fused IMINT and ground reporting by SOXMIS which reported to GSFG/WGF and not the Carpathian Military District.  In the case of the latter, I worked for seven  months at the desk in BAOR that monitored SOXMIS touring activity and I'll tell you for free that it could not and did not track 'every movement.'

[Rice]

I have been on this forum for a while now and one thing that has been crossing my mind a lot after reading more and more of John Kettlers posts is how many times he has claimed to be a Soviet Threat Analysist, yet he has never backed up the claim with any credentials. I would normally not randomly ask someone for their credentials but,  there has been many times where Kettler has said something, or claimed something, then falls back on his claimed experience as evidence when presented with sources that contradict him instead of providing sources himself. This is obviously potentially very harmful to the collective integrity of Combat Mission itself, considering the amount of input this forum has. So @John Kettlerplease provide credentials as to your experience please.

[dbsapp]

19 hours ago, Combatintman said:

Suvorov's writings