Bradley vs T90

[Bemused]

I'm playing a scenario with a friend where a Bradley of mine took out one of his T90s, hitting it with its 25mm cannon on the front at about 1000m. We were both a bit surprised.  The hit message referred to hitting an "opening".  Is this to be expected?  What the heck is an "opening" on the front of a MBT?!?!?

Thanks

[zmoney]

Maybe an extremely lucky vision slit hit.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

15 minutes ago, zmoney said:

Maybe an extremely lucky vision slit hit.

On a modern tank?

No. 

Not even straight through the gun-sight.

Very dodgy IMHO. 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[chuckdyke]

15 hours ago, Bemused said:

What the heck is an "opening" on the front of a MBT?!?!?

Thanks

Shelltrap below the mantlet of the tank and it can reflect through the drivers hatch. It is what happened of the Bovington's Tiger after it was hit by a 6-pounder. The crew bailed out the British had intel on the new German Cats. Things like that happen very often in CM too often in my book. 

[Chibot Mk IX]

Did the Tank commander turn out? If it is, some hits on the TC Hatch will count as "hit opening" 

[ZPB II]

Down the barrel and into the breech?

[Bemused]

Thanks for ideas lads - I am seeing it ("opening" penetration) often enough in this scenario.  Tank crew was buttoned up.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

BTW - Are you playing 'Galloping Horse Downfall' by any chance? 

[chuckdyke]

Russian AT-Rifle hit a Tiger penetration was recorded. Possible if it went through the top which is 25 mm. It counted as an opening hit. Still have the screen shot somewhere. Couldn't see the commander on replay. 

[Armorgunner]

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Russian AT-Rifle hit a Tiger penetration was recorded. Possible if it went through the top which is 25 mm. It counted as an opening hit. Still have the screen shot somewhere. Couldn't see the commander on replay. 

Well, If it was no opening on the Tiger before, you made one 

[slysniper]

can you just replay the  turn and see where it hit. (pause is your friend while doing this)

Its been a long time since I have played BS, but I do know you can take a T90 out with a Bradley, but I do not recall doing it from the front.

But flanking and jumping it from the rear has worked for me

[dbsapp]

On 9/13/2021 at 4:31 AM, Bemused said:

I'm playing a scenario with a friend where a Bradley of mine took out one of his T90s, hitting it with its 25mm cannon on the front at about 1000m. We were both a bit surprised.  The hit message referred to hitting an "opening".  Is this to be expected?  What the heck is an "opening" on the front of a MBT?!?!?

Thanks

I had the similar case with Bradley penetrating T90M from the front and killing one of the crew members (last mission of Crossing the Dnieper campaign). Then it finished tank with TOW. 

Playing Americans in modern series is basically God mode. In this regard CM games are as realistic as Rambo movies. They are hilariously overpowered, so example you have provided is not surprising at all. 

 

[Bemused]

"Valley of Death" Sgt. Squarehead.  I played it as Russian initially and won it - in that game the Bradley got the kill at relatively short range - maybe 200m but again from the front.  The longer range kill occurred when we swapped sides and I won as the American in that one.  I don't know db, I find most scenarios balanced enough - the thing that makes a huge difference is APS - it basically renders Russian infantry impotent against US vehicles.  With Javelins, the revers is not true. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

10 hours ago, dbsapp said:

In this regard CM games are as realistic as Rambo movies.

I'd absolutely agree where CM:BS is concerned.....The Bradley in particular is stupidly overpowered (almost immune to 122mm precision munitions) and the M1 Abrams appears to feature a cloaking device! 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Lethaface]

On 9/12/2021 at 10:31 PM, Bemused said:

I'm playing a scenario with a friend where a Bradley of mine took out one of his T90s, hitting it with its 25mm cannon on the front at about 1000m. We were both a bit surprised.  The hit message referred to hitting an "opening".  Is this to be expected?  What the heck is an "opening" on the front of a MBT?!?!?

Thanks

AFAIK Opening means that a round flew through the open cupola, I guess he had the tank unbuttoned?

[zmoney]

I almost think it’s a T-90 thing. Was just playing a scenario as the Rus where my mission is to take out a Ukrainian checkpoint manned by those 30mm vehicles. One of my T-90’s took a 30mm round to the front and I received the same hit message. It didn’t KO the tank nor did I lose a crewman. T-90 was buttoned up.

 

My experience with the US forces apparently has been vastly different than some others in here. The US forces are better equipped but god mode???? Not even close. It would seem that I received a copy of the most balanced version of CMBS in circulation. Every time my US forces miss a shot or otherwise screw up I find myself cursing db, Bufo, and Sgt lol. IMO I think it has a lot to do with experience lvl of your troops vs the opfor.

[Bufo]

5 hours ago, zmoney said:

I find myself cursing db, Bufo, and Sgt lol.

It     w a s      n o t      m e

I

Edited October 6, 2021 by Bufo

[MikeyD]

The coaxial mg opening is an (admittedly small) entry from the armor exterior into the interior. Here's a famous picture of a Pershing penetrated through the coax aperture. Admittedly, that was an 88 penetration from near point blank range.

[zmoney]

It happened again last night while playing a scenario against brads “hit opening” but no injuries or damage. 
 

On another note I think I have been converted to the Brad’s needing a small tweak. 30mm rounds were bouncing from the side of the Brad until finally I got a lucky turret pin and killed the gunner but the Brad itself just backed away into cover. The other Brad in the scenario got walloped by arty and was immobilized but the optics/gun/fire controls weren’t damaged and was making amazing spots even to its left and right. 

[dbsapp]

On 10/6/2021 at 10:29 AM, zmoney said:

I find myself cursing db

 

13 hours ago, zmoney said:

I have been converted

First they laugh at you  

Then they curse you 

And finally they see that Bradlies are ugly overpowered. 

 

 

 

[Artkin]

They really are hideous with all that ERA

[sid_burn]

On 9/19/2021 at 7:17 AM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I'd absolutely agree where CM:BS is concerned.....The Bradley in particular is stupidly overpowered (almost immune to 122mm precision munitions) and the M1 Abrams appears to feature a cloaking device! 

Its not so much that the Bradley is overpowered its that its an over-engineered tank destroyer/light tank/IFV combo from hell (AKA the department of defense). 

 

 

 Sadly, Black Sea can't really capture any real life deficiencies it might have.

Edited October 10, 2021 by sid_burn

[John Kettler]

2 hours ago, sid_burn said:

Its not so much that the Bradley is overpowered its that its an over-engineered tank destroyer/light tank/IFV combo from hell (AKA the department of defense). 

 

 

 Sadly, Black Sea can't really capture any real life deficiencies it might have.

A classic still ruefully mentioned in the Pentagon. The F-16 was intended to be the West's MiG-21 equivalent, a real dogfighter. By the time the Air Force got through with it weight and cost were through the roof, and I believe they even configured it to carry a tac nuke. Am pretty convinced the Army and Air Force, not sure about the Navy, could blow any weight budget even if given Unobtainium (optimal military use nonexistent metal that's cheap, easily worked, super tough when hit and weighs next to nothing)! Also, it's hard to make general on a program that isn't big, impressive, massively budgeted and can be structured to require parts from all or most of the states, thus ensuring support from Congress. We used to envy the Russians and their ability to produce potent hardware that worked under terrible conditions and do so relatively cheaply and in quantity--quickly.

Regards,

John Kettler

P.S.

People with either military or defense contractor backgrounds don't watch this or process it the way non-defense types do. For us, such throwaway expressions as "Close enough for government work" have deep levels of meaning, having seen the mentality expressed. Dad used to work at LTV Electrosystems (E Systems these days), and one of the firm's business lines was refurbishing old military aircraft, complete with wiring harnesses. The firm was so successful in imbuing the workers with a saving a handful of rivets mindset that hundreds of wiring harnesses were made, say, a foot too short and were therefore useless! Years of development produced the DIVADS which malfunctioned and pointed its twin 40s straight at the reviewing stand (along with being hopelessly bad despite a wealth of proven components) and my personal favorite the Phalanx test in which it shot an inbound bomb full of holes (was told by someone who saw the firing test film you could see daylight through it), but the bomb came boring in, hit the barge and, I believe, sank it. The only good news is that enough sanity had prevailed that the firing was done remotely and enthusiastic brass (civilian and military) visitors who would otherwise have been aboard had been talked out of it.

Pentagon Wars is a comedy to be sure, but a black one based on real truth behind US defense procurement. Time for one more anecdote. My first boss at Hughes, John Green, used to work at Naval Weapons Center China Lake, home of the Eye series weapons (Snakeye retarded bombs, for one). Along comes a firepower demonstration, in which meticulous planning provides a fail safe in case the bombs don't hit and detonate on target. Got to have impressive explosions on the targets, right? The plane rolls in smartly, aims and drops the bombs, but the explosions are overeager and occur before the bombs hit! The guy with the backup plan had somehow managed to press the button and blown up the target array before the bombs arrived. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by John Kettler

[John Kettler]

On 9/12/2021 at 3:31 PM, Bemused said:

I'm playing a scenario with a friend where a Bradley of mine took out one of his T90s, hitting it with its 25mm cannon on the front at about 1000m. We were both a bit surprised.  The hit message referred to hitting an "opening".  Is this to be expected?  What the heck is an "opening" on the front of a MBT?!?!?

Thanks

There is an extremely small, but nevertheless real and vulnerable vision optic for the T-90 driver. Am unsure whether it's a periscope or direct optic, such as a vision block, but either way, it's a vulnerable point on the tank. If that spot happens to take a 25 mm Bushmaster subcaliber DU APDS penetrator through it, the odds are quite high it will kill the tank or at least the crew from pyrophoric, heat and pressure effects. 



DU pyrophoric effects behind armor.

Watch the 2 minite mark or so and imagine much the same happening inside the tank, albeit on a smaller scale because of the greatly reduced amount of DU involved. Accompanying the pyrotechnics is an abrupt spike in temperature and pressure, made worse because the Russian tanks even today routinely fight buttoned, meaning there's no real way for that pressure and heat to vent. 
 

Imagine this is happening inside the T-90. See sequence beginning 0:32. Given what I'm seeing in the various live fire clips, a dead tank, as opposed to blown up tank, seems to be a good outcome. To me, something like this would definitely get the job done, but so might a 25 mm HEI-T shell, because its got a kill radius of 5 meters vs infantry. if that hits the optic and detonates immediately, or worse, slightly later, imagine what a hand grenade equivalent would do to the interior of the tank and crew. The chance of that kind of hit on a buttoned T-90 is low, but nevertheless real and finite. And firing a burst increase the chance of such a hit.
 

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited October 10, 2021 by John Kettler

[Bufo]

1 hour ago, John Kettler said:

There is an extremely small, but nevertheless real and vulnerable vision optic for the T-90 driver. Am unsure whether it's a periscope or direct optic, such as a vision block