Target type selection for AFVs or guns

[bruno2016]

how to set up the target type for a gun or an AFV (in defensive mode or hunting) so that, for instance, it fires first on enemy vehicles and/or guns and ignore the enemy infantry units as long as they are not an immediate threat? Many times, for instance in hunting mode to fire at an enemy tank after moving, my AFV stopped on the way or at the end of its movement to fire instead on some infantry popping up in the distance. And I do not want to use the Fast or Quick move command so my tank can immediately stop and fire when the enemy tank or gun is in its LOS.

[Pelican Pal]

You can combine the Hunt command with an Armored Arc. This will cause it to ignore infantry and target vehicles.

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

Yeah as Pelican Pal says you can set an Armored Cover Arc (in the Combat command tabs - it shows up as a purple arc) and click to set the area you want the vehicle to cover. It will then only stop, if using Hunt, when it detects an AFV within the cover arc and it will not stop for infantry and I don't think AT guns don't count as armour either but I'm sure someone else knows better than I. You can set different arcs at waypoints too so you could hunt for a bit while covering to the right then select the next waypoint and set the arc to the left etc etc.

Note though that it will also ignore everything outside of the arc so if you set it and your tank spots an enemy tank that is outside its cover arc it will not stop nor fire but happily ignore it. The TacAI can and will take over an fire if it deems it necessary to do so but I can't seem to get it do so reliably and have lost a few vehicles this way, one in a PBEM match not so long ago.

MMM

Edited September 9, 2021 by Monty's Mighty Moustache
Typo

[bruno2016]

ok so the armor covered arc isnt only about the angle and distance of possible fire, it discriminates non armor target types. is this what you explain? this MO mens you know where to expect armor. If some armor shows up outside the CA, you are done, right?

[Vergeltungswaffe]

If your unit is facing the way you want them to, but you are concerned about threats from other areas, give them a 360 degree arc.

There are situations where you won't want to do that, but often times it is helpful in not ignoring unexpected threats.

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

11 hours ago, bruno2016 said:

ok so the armor covered arc isnt only about the angle and distance of possible fire, it discriminates non armor target types. is this what you explain? this MO mens you know where to expect armor. If some armor shows up outside the CA, you are done, right?

Basically yes. Armour cover arcs mean the unit will only react to armoured units inside the cover arc and will ignore any non armour contacts inside the arc and will ignore everything outside of the arc. 

I find cover arcs very useful for making sure your units hold fire e.g. get a scout team into position and give them a very small cover arc so they don’t fire at anything or give an AT gun only an armour cover arc so it does not fire at infantry and give its position away. Arcs are also great for setting up ambushes and for facing your turret to a certain direction when travelling.

I don’t think I have ever used them with hunt as I only tend to use hunt in very specific scenarios.

MMM

[Erwin]

2 hours ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

If some armor shows up outside the CA, you are done, right?

Usually, yes.  In some cases, the AI crew will fire at targets out side of an arc.  But, generally, they will not.  IIRC, the more experienced the crew the less likely they will disobey orders.  The more inexperienced, the more likely...

[chuckdyke]

Be very cautious. Observers a very short arc it means they hold their fire. Tanks if they travel from right to left on the map. In this case a huge arc so he turns the gun in the right direction. Especially in modern warfare be prepared for anything. It seems a good idea to give your Javelin an armor arc. Till you see that a Kornet takes him out with 30 seconds to spare.  

[bruno2016]

7 hours ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

I don’t think I have ever used them with hunt as I only tend to use hunt in very specific scenarios.

I use the hunt mode very often as  it allows the moving tank to fire if some bad guys or crates show up on the way unexpectedly.  Once I used the fast mode in open ground and a hidden russian tank killer team destroyed my Panther. I re-did the move  in U mode and the Panther managed to see them, reverse a bit and fire, from a safe distance.

 

[bruno2016]

Thanks to you all for these explanations. I have other points I never really understood in the CM engine but I will open a new thread for this

 

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

7 minutes ago, bruno2016 said:

I use the hunt mode very often as  it allows the moving tank to fire if some bad guys or crates show up on the way unexpectedly.  Once I used the fast mode in open ground and a hidden russian tank killer team destroyed my Panther. I re-did the move  in U mode and the Panther managed to see them, reverse a bit and fire, from a safe distance.

 

I don’t really use Hunt at all with tanks, to me they should be moving full speed between bounds with over watching forces ready to obliterate anything that dares open fire on them, or infantry should be screening any suspected enemy positions before I move my tanks an inch out of good cover. 

[bruno2016]

22 hours ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

I don’t really use Hunt at all with tanks, to me they should be moving full speed between bounds with over watching forces ready to obliterate anything that dares open fire on them, or infantry should be screening any suspected enemy positions before I move my tanks an inch out of good cover. 

what will u do then if a hidden gun opens fire - during - your move as your tank wont stop to shoot back unless it is in Hunt mode. 

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

17 hours ago, bruno2016 said:

what will u do then if a hidden gun opens fire - during - your move as your tank wont stop to shoot back unless it is in Hunt mode. 

Tanks are a pretty valuable force multiplier, without knowing where the enemy is I try not to move them at all and use them as overwatching elements while I send out some infantry or scout vehicles if I have them to see what's what. Tanks don't make good scouts as they are big, noisy and don't spot very well.

When it's time to move I use bounding overwatch to advance the platoon/company with one section/platoon overwatching the advance of the other as they leapfrog up the map. If any guns open up on the bounding section then hopefully either they will spot it and return fire or the overwatch section will and blow it to smithereens.

Also choice of route is important too. I try to always find dead ground to move through to the next bound and if I absolutely have to cross open ground then I'll either obscure the movement with smoke if I have it, any indirect fires as a secondary measure on suspected enemy positions (e.g. a treeline) or use the overwatching heavy weapons and AFVs to shoot up the area to keep any enemy heads down while we're moving.

MMM

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

Also if you haven't seen it already I would highly recommend Bil's Battle Drill Blog, it goes into a lot more details about how to play this game (I've linked to the movement techniques section): https://battledrill.blogspot.com/2013/08/tactical-skills002movement-techniques.html

MMM

[chuckdyke]

Sorry to butt in, you never attack with one tank. AT-Guns are deemed to be camouflaged and the trick in CM is to use combined arms. It is attrition and be prepared to take losses. Give the AT-Gun plenty of targets his position is known that way. Here is an incidence in real life a company of JS2 pulled up in front of 2 PAK 75's. You know what happened they didn't shoot and surrendered. Doesn't happen in CM you may lose one tank often you do not as they will be suppressed. You attack if you can combine Artillery, Armour and Infantry in one team. The Germans have an expression Fingerspitzengefuhl. Compare it with your fingers playing piano. Each a different tune playing the same music. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

What if you only have one tank? 

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

8 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

What if you only have one tank? 

Hopefully you have infantry support and have cleared any dangerous areas before moving it, and when you do move it move it through as much cover with as much obscuration as possible.

MMM

[chuckdyke]

13 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

What if you only have one tank?

Smallest unit is a platoon of 4 tanks. You can't really attack with stragglers the C2 requirements will let you down. I posted some stuff in Edge of Darkness it is a meeting scenario but there is no sense of the deployment of armor by the AI. The Brits have Scimitars and the Syrians T72's on overwatch are deployed in the town. 

[Howler]

22 hours ago, bruno2016 said:

what will u do then if a hidden gun opens fire - during - your move as your tank wont stop to shoot back unless it is in Hunt mode. 

Most vehicles post-WWII are able to fire on the move. What is effected is spotting where it's true across eras that it's much improved when stationary. Bounding acknowledges this by having overwatch elements stationary and prepared to fire in response quickly.

Spotting capability should be your primary concern as he who spots first usually has the advantage.

[womble]

On 9/11/2021 at 12:31 PM, Erwin said:

 IIRC, the more experienced the crew the less likely they will disobey orders.  The more inexperienced, the more likely...

My recollection is that Motivation rules how likely they are to obey/disobey; highly Motivated troops will tend to obey orders better in the face of adverse circumstances. Leadership and Experience give them more, and more well-considered "initiative" to vary their orders to respond to unexpected threats. Or at least, that's the programming intention, AIUI. How well that translates into in-game performance, I'm unsure

[bruno2016]

so, in WW2, to counter hidden ATGs which pop up and fire at your moving tank(s), the best approach, if i understand correctly, is to move with not less than a platoon (4-5 tanks), maybe 2 of them moving, the other 2-3 covering and static, and u have to accept to get one or two of them knocked out before u can write off the gun? The moving tanks shld be in fast mode to reach their destination AQAP, right?

[domfluff]

Well, the best approach is to have performed effective terrain analysis and reconnaissance, such that you have scouted out likely AT gun positions, and destroyed or suppressed them with indirect fires.

The second best approach with a tank platoon with 4 or 5 tanks moving into open ground would be to split them into two groups. One should be in cover (for example, if you were cresting a hill to get into the open ground, then this first group could be in hull down positions on this crest).

When this first group is in position, the second group would move. Ideally, this move would be to another piece of cover, but that can be situationally dependent. This second group probably wants to cross this open ground as fast as possible, so as to minimise the time that they are exposed. In an ideal situation you never want to fight on the move, and your stationary group needs to have line of sight to the areas where AT assets could be hidden. This is what will determine the limit of advance of the moving element.

[womble]

10 minutes ago, domfluff said:

Well, the best approach is to have performed effective terrain analysis and reconnaissance, such that you have scouted out likely AT gun positions, and destroyed or suppressed them with indirect fires.

Small (or even medium) calibre mortars in direct lay mode are ideal for this. Generally a good idea to make sure the position is actually dangerous though, since ammo is limited and speculative fire should probably be judiciously used.

 

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

41 minutes ago, bruno2016 said:

so, in WW2, to counter hidden ATGs which pop up and fire at your moving tank(s), the best approach, if i understand correctly, is to move with not less than a platoon (4-5 tanks), maybe 2 of them moving, the other 2-3 covering and static, and u have to accept to get one or two of them knocked out before u can write off the gun? The moving tanks shld be in fast mode to reach their destination AQAP, right?

Have a read of this, it's doctrine drawn up by the panzer commanders during WW2 but with Bil's notes. It about sums things up.

https://battledrill.blogspot.com/2016/03/tank-tactics-panzer-vorwarts-aber-mit.html

MMM

[chuckdyke]

Read your mission this one is an 'Assault' no points for destroying enemy units. The objectives are right on the end of the map. As long as you kill more enemy than you lose you will win. See one tank attack it with a platoon. Spot a platoon attack it with a company. Fire and movement. Your tactics depend on the mission. Spotting by attacking with inexperienced troops rescue them with your key units. You won't spot a hidden and camouflaged enemy.

By the way I enjoyed playing this scenario.