ASL (and similar systems) values translation to CM unit settings?

[kohlenklau]

I did a few forum searches but did not find any golden nuggets...

What is a good rule of thumb to convert values off your ASL or similar game system scenario cards to CM settings?

Experience:Elite, Crack, Veteran, Regular, Green Conscript

Motivation: Fanatic, Extreme, High, Normal, Low, Poor

Leadership: +2, +1, 0, -1, -2

I am not an ASL guy but am scooping up scenario cards for ideas to try to make a rough crossover into the CM world.

Even if you wanted to, it seems a direct translation from an ASL scenario to a CM scenario is impossible to do. Some of it has to do with the victory point scoring in ASL which always demands a human judge what happened. CM scoring and final result can be deformed from natural expectations by the objective type used in the CM scenario. That was my lesson learned after ten versions of "Clash of Armour"...

SMC single man counters have 2 or 3 numerals. ASL has M-L morale and leadership. Examples off the scenario cards are 8-1, 8-0, 9-2(!!), 7-0. Advanced Tobruk System has 3 digits like 1|1|8 and 1|1|7.

MMC has 3 digits, F-R-M, firepower-range-morale. 7|4|9, 4-6-8, 6|5|8...

Anybody got a rule of thumb or seen one to use that makes sense?

 

 

[domfluff]

I honestly think that a direct conversion isn't really where you want to be. There are some inherent assumptions which the games make which differ - the most obvious are things like national characteristics, which are not a function in Combat Mission.

When I've tried doing similar things before (I've converted some Force on Force and Combat Commander scenarios before now), I've used the scenarios and map design as a guide, and then used the force as presented in CM, with the CM TO&E and Typical values, only adjusting if deemed appropriate after some testing, or if the tactical problem demands it (e.g., if the point of the scenario is that you're trying to hold out against armour with limited AT assets, then clearly you want to delete those as appropriate).

[kohlenklau]

11 minutes ago, domfluff said:

I honestly think that a direct conversion isn't really where you want to be

It must be a personal thing. Some of my buddies seem to get a nostalgic warm feeling from seeing the try at even a superficial conversion of these oldies but goodies. Some were converted to CMAK or CMX1 games. For me, it is a nice recipe to make a shake and bake scenario in a day or 2. But the ASL maps are much less of an inspiration or guide. I understand why. No problem.

So,for those pleasant reasons,  the ASL to CM conversions are a great place to be for me! :-) 

Leaders: ASL L number will be the CM leadership value. 2 = +2, 1 =+1, 0=0

Morale number would be the motivation? 9 would be extreme. 8 would be high. 7 is normal? Stay away from fanatic?

Would these numbers also reflect on experience? Oh, the square with the "E" is elite. So, normally not many crack troops, lots of veterans and regulars?

@Heinrich505 Is it as simple as that Gary? 

[StieliAlpha]

26 minutes ago, domfluff said:

I honestly think that a direct conversion isn't really where you want to be. There are some inherent assumptions which the games make which differ - the most obvious are things like national characteristics, which are not a function in Combat Mission.

When I've tried doing similar things before (I've converted some Force on Force and Combat Commander scenarios before now), I've used the scenarios and map design as a guide, and then used the force as presented in CM, with the CM TO&E and Typical values, only adjusting if deemed appropriate after some testing, or if the tactical problem demands it (e.g., if the point of the scenario is that you're trying to hold out against armour with limited AT assets, then clearly you want to delete those as appropriate).

Yep, a long time ago, I tried to convert Albuera from Clash of Arms‘ La Battaille Series to a very comparable computer game. Numberwise, it was easy enough. But the outcome was not very satisfying. My game was, eh, playable, but by far not as exciting as the original.

Board game OOB‘s should certainly give Kohl a good starting point, but I guess it will still take quite an effort to develop a working CM scenario from them.

BTW, I am trying the same with Valor & Victory now: Convert Combat Commander scenarios to V&V, but I am not yet happy with the results.

Edited August 31, 2021 by StieliAlpha

[Heinrich505]

As others have noted, it is very difficult to try and get a direct conversion from any of the noted boardgames, such as ASL, into CM.  

Elite or Crack troops in ASL would have morale of 8, but motivation wouldn't necessarily be morale.  CM allows for things like crack troops not very highly motivated, or conscript troops/partisans having high motivation.  With a 9-2 leader in ASL, you will have a very strong change of passing every morale check, and the leader has a low chance of breaking his morale as well.  I don't think CM can really simulate that.  Domfluff noted that national characteristics are not a part of CM, and that makes a big difference when trying to convert the board game to CM.    

There is no easy way of converting things from boardgame to CM, but as others have noted, having the Scenario cards as a guide to give you a starting point and then try to approximate the counter mix into CM formations will get you in the ball park for trying to capture the feel of the scenario.

Someone once tried to convert Squad Leader (or was it ASL...) Hill 621 into CM.  It was a worthy try, but never seemed to capture the excitement and nail-biting action that the boardgame battle had.  I remember some insane melee combat on the ridge line victory points, with the counters locked in hand-to-hand combat and troops close assaulting tanks with vicious dice rolls for the board game.  The CM version was fun but never as exciting.

I'd say a lot of testing would be needed to get a CM conversion close to the ASL battle.  

[kohlenklau]

On 8/31/2021 at 12:13 PM, domfluff said:

direct conversion

 

On 8/31/2021 at 12:38 PM, StieliAlpha said:

Board game OOB‘s should certainly give Kohl a good starting point, but I guess it will still take quite an effort to develop a working CM scenario from them.

 

On 8/31/2021 at 1:14 PM, Heinrich505 said:

There is no easy way of converting things from boardgame to CM, but as others have noted, having the Scenario cards as a guide to give you a starting point and then try to approximate the counter mix into CM formations will get you in the ball park for trying to capture the feel of the scenario.

Yeah, now I think you are ALL correct in a way!

I will refrain from saying it is a direct conversion. It is just a convenient starting point to get the creative juices flowing for hatching out a CM scenario. For example, a few days ago I started with SBEITLA PROBE ASL scenario 18 and changed the map to reflect google earth, so I renamed it "Moon Over Sbeitla" with the battle still at 0115 but even though I researched the moon conditions and thought it was doable, the testing had CM pixeltruupen walking by each other. Very frustrating. So, then I renamed it "Tunisian Twilight" and changed the time to 2130. Some spotting was better but sometimes still behaving oddly. I have a few buddies testing it. 

[domfluff]

I definitely think that tabletop wargame scenarios can be a useful base for CM - they can have exactly the same problems, in that their veracity or tactical depth depend very much on the designer, but it's certainly not a bad idea inherently, I just think it needs to be done with eyes open.

[slysniper]

As mentioned, , the ASL scenarios are good for concept but direct conversion is not normally the key to success.

I have done at least a dozen for myself over the years.

I find that you can normally convert the troops and units pretty much like you are trying to do.

 

I find the challenge is in creating a map that will create the same type of effects. Trying to do 1 to 1 scale does not generally work well.

Also the amount of time is not a good conversion either.

 

In general these items need to be adjusted. So getting the same or similar feel to the battle requires normally a shorter time frame in cm and the map either needs to be smaller in proportion or similar scale  but many more buildings and woods and such to create similar line of sight issues.

 

needless to say, its not much more than a aid as to a concept as to what you want to create.

 

which by that point, might as well use it as a rough concept only. Pick your own force mixture and create something totally new but with the goal of getting the same combat feel you remember from playing the battles in ASL

I did a hill 621 that came out really well, but if you were to compare it to ASL it would not rate well as to similar in many ways.

 

 

 

 

[StieliAlpha]

It comes to mind: Perhaps it is worthwhile to have a look at real table top games. I have no experience with them, but can imagine, that the set-up instructions are more „liberal“ than in board games and the conditions are easier to translate to CM. Unfortunately, I never played any, so I can‘t recommend one.

Edited September 3, 2021 by StieliAlpha

[domfluff]

 

1 hour ago, StieliAlpha said:

It comes to mind: Perhaps it is worthwhile to have a look at real table top games. I have no experience with them, but can imagine, that the set-up instructions are more „liberal“ than in board games and the conditions are easier to translate to CM. Unfortunately, I never played any, so I can‘t recommend one.

One issue you have with that line is that the majority of miniature systems tend to be more about the miniatures than the game. There are a number of reasons for that, and part of it is that there is a hard limit to how much information can be conveyed by a miniature, when compared with a counter or block.

This tends to mean that if you're looking for a serious, detailed look at a subject from a technical or TO&E level, you typically want a "boardgame" wargame, rather than a miniatures game.

There are some excellent counter-examples to this, but it's a fairly typical trend. The scenarios can still be useful as a basis for conversion - Force on Force is a modern miniatures game, and one I have converted scenarios from in the past (although the nature of that game means that scenarios tend to be a platoon at most, which means that things need scaling up.

[kohlenklau]

On 9/2/2021 at 4:28 PM, slysniper said:

I did a hill 621 that came out really well

Can we get some of these scenarios from you? I understand they may be "not ready for prime time" and have no images and briefings. I would not mind that at all.

[kohlenklau]

On 8/31/2021 at 12:13 PM, domfluff said:

When I've tried doing similar things before

Can we get some of your scenarios from you? I understand they may be "not ready for prime time" and have no images and briefings. I would not mind that at all.

[domfluff]

I don't think I have any of those still around. I do have a youtube video of a 1:1 thing from Force on Force Road to Baghdad, so it's a single Marine squad (as mentioned, scenarios need scaling up). I did a few Combat Commander conversions, and decided that the sight lines were mostly a problem, but was keen to see how it looked.

Oh, I did start working on a conversion for Cold War, mostly because it was silly. There's a Cold War Gone Hot module for Force on Force which is split into three - Fears, Realities and Fantasies, for the Cold War as we thought it would be, some realistic scenarios as it perhaps might have been, and then scenarios from the movies. One of those was based on the base assault from Dr Strangelove. It's not all that interesting as a scenario, but it was mostly just messing around.

[kohlenklau]

1 hour ago, domfluff said:

I don't think I have any of those still around

okey doke! I am more of a WW2 kinda guy anyway... 

Best wishes to you

[slysniper]

I wish I could, but over the years I have not saved the files in other locations and with CM and the install issues that can happen and updates and such, I have manage to lose a bunch of scenarios or have them overwritten with the default ones more than once. You would think I would care about it more than that, But I generally don't and I am on to other things to come up with or want to try. 

I did look to see what I might have still and I did not see any ASL that I remember.

I did see a few Rat Patrol cmfi battles.

You know, two Jeeps with 50 cals taking on the German convoy patrol , which happened in almost every show of the series.

Needless to say, one would say, no way that would not turn out like that in real life.

Well, I have proven to myself that yes if they can suprise the force and jump them from the flank or rear. They have a good chance of tearing the Germans up. 

AC cars and halftracks are Easy Prey. Taking out a early war tank is much harder, but I had some success there as I recall, but it was luck. Generally it was hit and run tactics and dont let the enemy armor engage.

[MikeyD]

When planning night battles pull up the lunar cycles for the year in question. For example July 20, 1982 is a new moon, July 6 or August 4 is a full moon. that will make ALL the difference in a night fight.

[kohlenklau]

3 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

When planning night battles pull up the lunar cycles for the year in question. For example July 20, 1982 is a new moon, July 6 or August 4 is a full moon. that will make ALL the difference in a night fight.

I did that for a February 1943 Tunisian battle. In real life it was 2 days before full. Of course the editor was July 43 but the basic dialing in to get the moon proper was based on googling the moon from the 40's.