Cold War Module speculation...

[Gary R Lukas]

No arguments here, I feel that both the Leopard I and II were and still are Bad Ass!!!!

[Halmbarte]

30 minutes ago, Amedeo said:

... and don't forget Leopard 2s! Possibly the best tanks NATO fielded in the game's timeframe.

I keep thinking the Leopard 2 was later but Wikipedia says the first deliveries were in ‘79. 
 

H

[Centurian52]

4 hours ago, Halmbarte said:

I keep thinking the Leopard 2 was later but Wikipedia says the first deliveries were in ‘79. 
 

H

Yeah, Leo2 shows up about a year earlier than the Abrams. I wouldn't expect any to be available in 79, since deliveries only just started in late 79. But by 1980 they should be available with about the same rarity that an M1 Abrams would have in 1981. With similar armor protection and FCS to the Abrams, and a much more powerful 120mm smoothbore gun, the Leopard 2 will easily be the best tank within the time period of the game.

[CaptainTheDark]

A school friend and I assembled his model of a Leopard 2 right around 1979 or 1980. He probably got it at a really great hobby shop we knew, one that was known for providing the RC airplanes in the Waldo Pepper movie (among others). Think they did some work for shots in Top Gun, too. I got a great Tamiya Bradley kit from that shop a few years later, and a nice M48. I miss Tommy's Hobby Shop.

[Von Richthofen]

On 8/13/2021 at 8:53 AM, Megalon Jones said:

The Polish in particular had their own non Soviet equipment plus a large contingent of marine naval infantry.  Outside the NVA, they seemed the most capable of the East Bloc.  Interesting stuff.

It’s hard to suss  out Soviet intentions regarding their satellite allies.  Because of the Hungarian Uprising and Prague Spring they were leery of putting too much emphasis on using Hungarian and Czechoslovak formations.  They increasingly distrusted the Polish after Gdańsk and martial law.  The Romanian’s were a big enough question mark to put them in the ‘unreliable’ category.  (Plus, it might not be in Moscow’s best interest to open a southern front against Turkey/Greece.)

I personally think Polish and NVA forces would have been used to some extent, maybe as a second wave or maybe assigning different divisions to Soviet Armies. Romanian army would've gotten wrekd by Turkey probably, so I doubt they'd be used. I've always wondered if the Yugoslavians would have been convinced to attack NATO in the Balkans or send troops into Austria.

[sawomi]

32 minutes ago, Von Richthofen said:

I personally think Polish and NVA forces would have been used to some extent, maybe as a second wave or maybe assigning different divisions to Soviet Armies. 

From "Fulda Gap - Battlefield of the Cold War Alliances"
https://www.lehmanns.de/shop/geisteswissenschaften/41200620-9781498569491-fulda-gap

Quote

As a young lieutenant and platoon leader in the 354th Armored Battalion in 1988—and stationed close to home no less—the author had to evaluate the terrain northeast of Bad Königshofen only a few kilometers distant from the inner-German border. With the four Leopard 1 tanks under his command, he was tasked with delaying an attacking enemy armored company as long as possible. Except for friendly reconnaissance forces, the 354th Armored Battalion would have been the first combat unit in contact with the enemy. The 354th’s parent-formation, the 35th Armored Brigade, was designated a “delaying formation.” The brigade was tasked with gaining time for American and German combat units of VII Corps (US) to assume their defensive positions. An enemy attack was presumed likely to originate in the so-called Meiningen Gap, and, according to the most recent findings, would likely have been units of the National People’s Army’s (NVA’s) Third Army.
Even at the time it was clear that the enemy’s main thrust into southern Germany would more likely occur through the Fulda Gap against neighboring friendly forces on the left, namely V Corps (US). This was little comfort to the author in light of the enemy’s expected armored assault against his own positions.

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by sawomi

[sawomi]

The same book also contains a chapter by Siegfried Lautsch who was an Oberst (Colonel) in the NVA and then an Oberstleutnant (Lieutenant Colonel) in the Bundeswehr. In DDR times he was  - Head of the Operative Department of Military District V/5th Army of the NVA (1983-1987), Sub-Department Head for Training in the Ministry of National Defense of the GDR (1987-1990). He writes:

Quote

"In the event of war, the 1st Front, also known as the Western Front, was to be formed from the Group of Soviet Armed Forces in Germany (GSSD) and the NVA. The inventory of the 1st Front included six Soviet armies, including an air army, as well as two armies to be formed from the East German armed forces. The latter were to grow up in a state of defense from Military Districts III (Leipzig) and V (Neubrandenburg) as the 3rd and 5th Armies. During the war, the total strength of the 1st Front included 19 Soviet divisions, 11 NVA divisions, 5 Soviet aviation divisions, 2 NVA air defense divisions, and one Soviet artillery division."

NVA 5th Army would have been on the most right flank up in the north on the Baltic coast and 3th Army on the most left flank south of the Thuringian Forest mountains.

Edited August 20, 2021 by sawomi

[sawomi]

 

Quote

 

Sandbox Games for Central Europe
An ex-NVA officer published a book in Potsdam about the "Theater of War Germany" by GUIDO BERG

It must have been some time ago that so many generals were gathered in one place in Potsdam. The color of the evening is gray, which comes from some Bundeswehr uniforms, but mostly from the hair color of the vast majority of those present, because some of them have been retired for a long time. The reason for the meeting in the Hans Meier Welcker Hall of the Center for Military History and Social Sciences of the German Armed Forces is a book. It was written by Siegfried Lautsch, who retired as a lieutenant colonel in the Bundeswehr in 2007 but was head of operational planning in the fifth military district in Neubrandenburg during GDR times. The title of his book, published in Potsdam, "Theater of War Germany. Experiences and Insights of an NVA Officer."

Lautsch is one of the first senior NVA officers to reveal the NVA's secret plans for E-Fall, "Ernstfall" or not a drill or practice  - the real thing. "I'm not interested in disclosure, not in betrayal of secrets," the man, who was born in 1949 and does not stand very tall, said at the book's presentation Wednesday night, "but in clarification." Some former comrades accuse him of blabbing, but Lautsch got his publication specially approved by the military staff in Moscow - if it's OK for the former "friends" with a 25-year gap, then it should probably be OK for the former NVA colleagues, too. Before 1990, a major German daily believes it knows, Lautsch would have taken a shot in the neck for his publication.

What does Lautsch have to report? He is concerned, he told the audience - which included not only ex-Prime Minister Manfred Stolpe but also Hans-Georg Wieck, a former president of the Federal Intelligence Service (BND) - with the change in strategic orientation in the 1980s. While attack operations to the west were also planned before 1985, he said, attack plans have not been touched since 1985 and only new defense plans have been developed.

Lautsch wanted to clarify that it was not Mikhail Gorbachev who changed the military doctrine, but the Soviet generals shortly before the later Nobel Peace Prize winner took office. The reason, he says, was the military debacle in Afghanistan, but also the strong opposition in Poland and the fact that the Soviet Union lacked the means to follow U.S. President Ronald Reagan's space armament program. As early as 1987, Lautsch reported, the first Soviet troops were withdrawn from the GDR.

Sitting on the podium with Lautsch were two retired major generals. One, Peter Herrich, served in the NVA, the other, Hanno Graf von Kielmansegg, in the Bundeswehr. There was a bit of a crackle between the two over the question of who was actually going to attack whom, NATO against the Warsaw Pact or the Warsaw Pact against NATO? Basically, it's a question about the reasons for the Cold War, which some wonder is really over, given the tensions between the U.S. and Russia that still arise today.

Von Kielmansegg, in charge of strategic planning on the Western side at almost the same time as Lautsch, said that the NATO states in Western Europe had never been in a position, in terms of forces, to attack the East. Even counterattacks - with the exception of those by the Luftwaffe - had "only ever been planned as far as the inner-German border". The ratio of forces would have been between one to two and one to five. The Warsaw Pact had had a "warfare strategy," NATO a "war prevention strategy." Von Kielmansegg: "The Bundeswehr was narrow; we never had enough forces." As a deterrent, therefore, there had been the concept of first use of nuclear weapons as a threat. NVA ex-General Herrich, who did not give the impression of being on home turf at the Center for Military History and Social Sciences, a Bundeswehr service, as von Kielmansegg did, briefly countered, "There are still different views." NATO had possessed "significant threat potential," he said. His Bundeswehr counterpart was more explicit, saying the East had falsified its image of the enemy for politically motivated reasons, "a fourth and a fifth German corps were invented," and homeland security groups "became entire divisions." "NATO forces could never have waged a war of aggression," von Kielmansegg said. After 1990, a Russian general in Moscow whispered to him, "of course we knew NATO would never attack." But with this message, they would not have been able to get many an armaments project through in Moscow "and our satellites would have gone off our shelves" - meaning the Eastern European countries.

In the discussion, retired Major General Dieter Brand from the audience supported the thesis of the peaceable NATO with an impressive argument: An attack on the GDR would have meant German unity if successful - "and our Allies would never have been prepared to do that".

https://www.pnn.de/potsdam/sandkastenspiele-fuer-mitteleuropa/21672516.html

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by sawomi

[Megalon Jones]

1 hour ago, sawomi said:

The same book also contains a chapter by Siegfried Lautsch who was an Oberst (Colonel) in the NVA and then an Oberstleutnant (Lieutenant Colonel) in the Bundeswehr. In DDR times he was  - Head of the Operative Department of Military District V/5th Army of the NVA (1983-1987), Sub-Department Head for Training in the Ministry of National Defense of the GDR (1987-1990). He writes:

NVA 5th Army would have been on the most right flank up in the north on the Baltic coast and 3th Army on the most left flank south of the Thuringian Forest mountains.

That’s another reason I think we’ll get the NVA and BAOR shipped together.  They share the same operational sectors.

[Sequoia]

I read a post once somewhere that I know I wouldn't be able to find again, so consider it apocryphal, but it was supposedly from a former East German soldier who said if they went to war with NATO, the first thing they would do was kill their officers.

[HerrTom]

I would be incredibly surprised if it wasn't NVA/Bundeswehr (plus, I'd love to see a professionally done version of my mod!)

8 hours ago, sawomi said:

Siegfried Lautsch

I have his book, Kriegsschauplatz Deutschland. I'll see if I can dig anything interesting from his maps.

Edit:
Found a map. He was in V. Armee so naturally his data is about its role in the "united armed forces" as he puts it.

Oh some translations to help you guys:
GSSD = Gruppe der Sowjetischen Streitkräfte in Deutschland, Group of Soviet Forces Germany
OK = Oberkommando, High Command
GdMSD = Garde-Motorisierte-Schützendivision, Guards Motor Rifle Division (likewise MSD for w/out guards)
GPD = Garde-Panzerdivision, Guards Tank Division (likewise PD for w/out guards)

Edited August 20, 2021 by HerrTom
Added image

[sawomi]

3 hours ago, HerrTom said:

...some translations to help you guys:

Also important:

Ausgang Tag 1 (2,3 ...) = Outcome or Result  Day 1 (2,3...)

Edited August 20, 2021 by sawomi

[Bufo]

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I'm blown away by the current title.....Absolutely superb! 

What I want is MORE! 

I'd be as happy to see the calendar expanded as I would the TOE for the current game.....finish off the 80s fast & give us a hypothetical 90s so we can almost link up with the tech in CM:SF2!

 

[The_Capt]

4 hours ago, Bufo said:

Ok, so that is a little disconcerting.  A T72 can kill a Leo 1 at 3 kms and a Leo can do the same at 800m?!  Am I reading that right?  Now I am wondering what a T64 takes.

[Bufo]

5 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

Ok, so that is a little disconcerting.  A T72 can kill a Leo 1 at 3 kms and a Leo can do the same at 800m?!  Am I reading that right?  Now I am wondering what a T64 takes.

Same can be said about the T-62 and the Leopard 2. That is more disconcerting for me 

[Amedeo]

5 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

Ok, so that is a little disconcerting.  A T72 can kill a Leo 1 at 3 kms and a Leo can do the same at 800m?!  Am I reading that right?  Now I am wondering what a T64 takes.

Yes, I think you're reading it right. Anyway consider that at the time that chart was made (I guess late '70s early '80s) data available about both the T-72 and its ammo was scarce. So actual results might differ for better or worse.

What really amazes me is that a T-62 that is considered capable of penetrating a Leopard 1 at 1800m (and the Leopard 1 was not famous for its heavy armour) is still able to penetrate the thickest part of the turret front of a Leopard 2 at 1000m! Even though the people who made the chart could not be aware of the real performance of newest Soviet hardware, they surely did know the ins and outs of the Leopards. If this chart is not fantasy, I guess that many of the estimates I've seen for the frontal turret protection of the Leopard 2A4 are way off.

[Lethaface]

On 8/26/2021 at 6:44 PM, Amedeo said:

Yes, I think you're reading it right. Anyway consider that at the time that chart was made (I guess late '70s early '80s) data available about both the T-72 and its ammo was scarce. So actual results might differ for better or worse.

What really amazes me is that a T-62 that is considered capable of penetrating a Leopard 1 at 1800m (and the Leopard 1 was not famous for its heavy armour) is still able to penetrate the thickest part of the turret front of a Leopard 2 at 1000m! Even though the people who made the chart could not be aware of the real performance of newest Soviet hardware, they surely did know the ins and outs of the Leopards. If this chart is not fantasy, I guess that many of the estimates I've seen for the frontal turret protection of the Leopard 2A4 are way off.

This chart doesn't say which Leo2 though, the 2A4 was introduced later in the 80s IIRC and has different turret armour ("and an improved turret with flat titanium/tungsten armour." according to wikipedia).

[Amedeo]

57 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

This chart doesn't say which Leo2 though, the 2A4 was introduced later in the 80s IIRC and has different turret armour ("and an improved turret with flat titanium/tungsten armour." according to wikipedia).

Yes, you're right. The diagram could show an earlier version or even a prototype. Maybe even the "infamous" Leopard 2AV that allegedly resulted less armoured than the M1 during the evaluation trials.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

As this whole thing is hypothetical, I'm hoping the design team might take a broad view over modules for this game.....As I've said before, I'm as interested, if not more interested, in seeing an extended timeline as I am in seeing extra nations or units.

The Pristina Incident offers us a potential WWIII starting, under rather unusual circumstances, in 1999.....Now who wouldn't want one of those? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Pristina_airport

https://medium.com/lapsed-historian/pristina-an-airport-too-far-42e010e19f12

PS - Love that you can see where they've scratched off the S and added a K on that BTR. 

PPS - What is it with American generals named Clark? 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

On 8/26/2021 at 6:24 PM, The_Capt said:

Ok, so that is a little disconcerting.  A T72 can kill a Leo 1 at 3 kms and a Leo can do the same at 800m?!  Am I reading that right?  Now I am wondering what a T64 takes.

The Leopard 1 was only lightly armored. Calculations at the time were, that it is very difficult to armor a vehicle against modern anti-tank systems, it would make the tank bulky, heavy and slow. Instead the tactics was speed and movement. Leo1 tactics is shoot and scoot and not get hit. Heavy armor would make the Leo1 inert.
There was another vehicle planned to replace the Leo1 at that time, a new concept of a Jagdpanzer, the VT1 with two guns and an extremely powerful motor, optimized to perform fastes acceleration forwards and in reverse, to maximise the ability to do shoot and scoot manouvers. But the vehicle did not go into serial production, because it was not able to perform in a satisfying way in any other form of combat.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Dr.Fusselpulli

[Combatintman]

4 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

As this whole thing is hypothetical, I'm hoping the design team might take a broad view over modules for this game.....As I've said before, I'm as interested, if not more interested, in seeing an extended timeline as I am in seeing extra nations or units.

The Pristina Incident offers us a potential WWIII starting, under rather unusual circumstances, in 1999.....Now who wouldn't want one of those? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Pristina_airport

https://medium.com/lapsed-historian/pristina-an-airport-too-far-42e010e19f12

PS - Love that you can see where they've scratched off the S and added a K on that BTR. 

PPS - What is it with American generals named Clark? 

So 10 years after the Cold War ended vs a shorter period of time to the CMSF-2 timeframe with more kit in common ... not going to happen under the CMCW banner mate, I'll wager both pensions on it.  There is already a ton of competition for nations and a time frame spanning, depending on how you frame the start potentially from from 1947-1989.  We all know what a sh1tfight R2V was for nations and their TO&Es ... playing extra pretend outside the Cold War time frame ... no ...  There's a European Mod somewhere I'm sure for SF - go knock yourself out with that ... after you've finished your other stuff of course 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

11 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

There's a European Mod somewhere I'm sure for SF - go knock yourself out with that

No T-80s. 

But I can't disagree that 1999 is pushing it from a Cold War perspective.....It's spot on for putative WWIIIs though. 

[JMDECC]

I would love to get TOE up to 1985 for all relevant factions at some point. 

 

Definitely hoping for the Bundeswehr. If I'm being unnrealistically hopeful a module that ships the BAOR, West Germany, NVA and maybe the Danes would be a dream. As long as we get there some day. Best CM release of all for me. 

[Artkin]

1985 and then 1947, right ?