Combat Mission Professional

[Sgt.Squarehead]

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Buildings are generic. Only one room on each floor.

Wrong, thats up to the map designer, limited by the size of the structure (and the designer's patience for clicking things in preview mode).

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Units can't make snipers positions always expose at the windows.

Wrong, Pause & Cover Arcs can do this.

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

We even can't make troops observe through a window if there is a balcony.

Wrong, as above.

 

[chuckdyke]

4 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Wrong, as above.

 

You don't know what I mean. When you fire you expose your position. Houses have kitchens, hallways  cellars and attics. The units can't modify the structures apart from blowing it up. They can't go up the attic and knock out a few rooftiles. When you position a sniper you don't expect them to go on the balcony. Thanks for the tip of the pause button I try that next time.

[Artkin]

Whats wrong about that? Buildings certainly do seem like they only have one room per floor. My troops get shot at from other buildings once they walk in their own sometimes. It really is totally ridiculous and in need of an overhaul. 

The solutions mentioned are workarounds.. nothing more.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Artkin

[MikeyD]

Some longstanding advice on the best way to use buildings for cover is to get behind the building. Shooting at targets from the upper floor of a (non-cathedral) building is just asking for a hmg to turn that facade into a sieve or an RPG round to come in through a window. In building fighting, catch' em by surprise once then relocate ASAP. Its not the fault of the game engine if you keep your men in place too long then lose the gun duel. People complain that the casualty rates in CM are too high, then they do risky stuff that kills off their forces.

[chuckdyke]

44 minutes ago, Artkin said:

The solutions mentioned are workarounds.. nothing more.

I agree with you but the game eats data. I see snipers as a key unit. Enter a building and for example have a command: "set up position." May take up to 5 minutes to knock out some inner wall to create a keyhole or move some tiles. Make use of furniture etc. For every minute spent preparing it takes the enemy a minute more to spot him. This is for a two man team. Just a suggestion. 

[Artkin]

Erm, no, it IS the fault of the game engine/design. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Artkin

[womble]

 

1 hour ago, Artkin said:

It really is totally ridiculous and in need of an overhaul. 

 

Ever heard of "abstraction level"? Apparently not.

[Centurian52]

1 hour ago, Artkin said:

Whats wrong about that? Buildings certainly do seem like they only have one room per floor. My troops get shot at from other buildings once they walk in their own sometimes. It really is totally ridiculous and in need of an overhaul. 

The solutions mentioned are workarounds.. nothing more.

The way building combat is currently modeled is certainly a huge abstraction. But I'd argue that it's probably necessary in order to avoid getting bogged down in getting that one thing working perfectly at the expense of everything else. For the most part I feel like building combat is "good enough". I seriously doubt the tac AI could handle realistic buildings anyway (could you imagine the current AI trying to pathfind through narrow hallways and multiple small rooms?), so an overhaul of urban combat would require overhauling the tac AI, which will require overhauling the entire game. There is no way they have the time or money for that.

It's a matter of balancing time and resources. No one has an infinite supply of either, so they have to pick and choose where they put their time and money. In this case they wanted a good general purpose combat simulator that could handle fighting in any environment in any period. So they chose generalization over specialization. They did every environment "good enough" instead of getting one environment perfect. For a game that took the opposite approach you should check out Door Kickers. Door Kickers is an outstanding example of urban/building combat done right. The way it depicts combat in buildings and houses is absolutely superb, because they chose to specialize in room clearing. But it could never represent a moderately sized field battle with multiple terrain types (for example: a small built up area in the middle, dense woods on either side, and open fields on the approaches) the way Combat Mission can, because Combat Mission chose to generalize in everything.

Maybe one day we'll get a game that does everything perfectly. But I'm not holding my breath (most games that get overambitious and try to do everything perfectly never make it into production).

[Artkin]

I've played a few pbems on the Berlin map now... you can have a squad run into a perfectly fine floor, be spotted walking through the door from a different building and then get shredded in less than half a turn. I always fast, or quick move my guys into the first floor before anything else.

If we could just have it tweaked that would be awesome !

Edited September 14, 2021 by Artkin

[Artkin]

1 hour ago, womble said:

 

 

Ever heard of "abstraction level"? Apparently not.

No sorry I'm uneducated and don't really know much about the Combat Mission series. Hurr Durr!

I was being too brash before. But it is kind of strange to see and is sometimes sad to see guys get blasted from a different building once they fast move into their own.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Artkin

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, Artkin said:

I always fast, or quick move my guys into the first floor before anything else.

I first secure the building that means using the building as a feature but don't enter. To enter a scout on hunt with a cover arc  hope there are no balconies. The pause technique didn't work this morning the unit still went on the balcony. My prime peeve you can't order the unit to stay inside and look through a window of your choice. I don't want a fancy house just to give units the choice to fortify a building which would make them harder to spot.  

[Bufo]

16 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

We even can't make troops observe through a window if there is a balcony.

Wrong, as above.

Picture please of a building with a balcony where the men won't go out on the balcony itself, but cover in that direction through the windows.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Bufo

[chuckdyke]

I moved the unit on the top floor and put the unit on pause. Even without a cover arc two troopers are out on the balcony. This is supposed to be a top unit 'Crack!' 

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by chuckdyke

[Zveroboy1]

How's this?

[chuckdyke]

4 minutes ago, Zveroboy1 said:

How's this?

Please project the camera from above so we can see the units with the cover arc on the top floor facing the balcony. And select the unit so that the building is transparent. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by chuckdyke

[Zveroboy1]

Yeah no, you'll have to take my word for it.

But if you look closely at the picture maybe you'll see why they won't go on the balcony.

[chuckdyke]

11 minutes ago, Zveroboy1 said:

But if you look closely at the picture maybe you'll see why they won't go on the balcony.

No doors Lol it is the answer for the problem. 

[Zveroboy1]

[Lethaface]

face it to opposide sise, pause and than give cover arc towards balcony. Because they are paused they will not move but only turn.

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

I moved the unit on the top floor and put the unit on pause. Even without a cover arc two troopers are out on the balcony. This is supposed to be a top unit 'Crack!' 

 

 

[chuckdyke]

42 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

ace it to opposide sise, pause and than give cover arc towards balcony. Because they are paused they will not move but only turn.

Ok I try that tomorrow it is now 9pm here. Thanks for your help. 

[chuckdyke]

Ends well all well thanks @Sgt.Squarehead and @Lethaface still it could be made easier.

 

[BFCElvis]

10 hours ago, Artkin said:

I always fast, or quick move my guys into the first floor before anything else.

That could be why you're getting shredded. If I want to get troops safely into a building quickly I will use Fast or Quick to the door and then either Hunt or Move to enter the building. Fast and Quick moving units don't seek cover as well as Move and Hunt. Give it a try and see if you notice a difference.

[Artkin]

Still, it shouldnt be happening either way. Can you see your neighbor across the street's back door? This is what I am talking about.

[FlemFire]

Now this fight club, I'm vaguely aware of its rules, but how do I get in?

[Probus]

1 hour ago, BFCElvis said:

That could be why you're getting shredded. If I want to get troops safely into a building quickly I will use Fast or Quick to the door and then either Hunt or Move to enter the building. Fast and Quick moving units don't seek cover as well as Move and Hunt. Give it a try and see if you notice a difference.

Ahhhh @BFCElvis, I'm playing @Artkin.  You shouldn't have told him that!  Now its gonna be a fair fight!