Operation Barbarossa Ever Winnable?

[SergeantSqook]

On 8/12/2021 at 4:56 AM, Aragorn2002 said:

I like Patton though. Rude, but honest. But that probably also cost him his life. 

Jokes aside, what does this mean?

 

Genuinely curious given that he died in a car accident which doesn't seem too related to any amounts of rudeness or honesty

[Warts 'n' all]

Perhaps he was rude to a garage mechanic.

[Aragorn2002]

35 minutes ago, SergeantSqook said:

Jokes aside, what does this mean?

 

Genuinely curious given that he died in a car accident which doesn't seem too related to any amounts of rudeness or honesty

I'm beginning to think I' m the local librarian in a town full of illiterates, but I recommend reading "Target Patton, the plot to assasinate General George S. Patton" by Robert K. Wilcox.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Aragorn2002

[dbsapp]

21 minutes ago, SergeantSqook said:

Jokes aside, what does this mean?

 

Genuinely curious given that he died in a car accident which doesn't seem too related to any amounts of rudeness or honesty

That was Stalin's spies job, you don't understand. 

[SergeantSqook]

27 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

I'm beginning to think I' m the local librarian in a town full of illiterates, but I recommend reading "Target Patton, the plot to assasinate General George S. Patton" by Robert K. Wilcox.

Oh I'm so glad I asked, thank you for that. That'll sustain me through dark times for the foreseeable future.

[Aragorn2002]

3 minutes ago, SergeantSqook said:

Oh I'm so glad I asked, thank you for that. That'll sustain me through dark times for the foreseeable future.

I doubt that, but my pleasure. 

[sid_burn]

37 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

I'm beginning to think I' m the local librarian in a town full of illiterates, but I recommend reading "Target Patton, the plot to assasinate General George S. Patton" by Robert K. Wilcox.

Its an interesting thesis but I don’t think Patton was assassinated. I view Patton through a spiritual lens. He was one of many war-like spirits sent to earth in a time of conflict. There were many such spirits sent to earth during WW2. When the war was over his spirit had no reason to be on the earth anymore and so he was recalled back to the heavens in a way that wouldn’t arouse suspicion to the mortals. 
 

1 hour ago, SergeantSqook said:

Jokes aside, what does this mean?

 

Genuinely curious given that he died in a car accident which doesn't seem too related to any amounts of rudeness or honesty

I don’t think it’s a coincidence he died as the war ended. Without conflict to sustain the violent spirit it was recalled to Mars’ side. One has seen this before with the great warriors, they die when the conflict ends because they can’t live without it, they have no purpose. The fact that he used his final days on earth trying to enlighten the mortals should be viewed as a positive IMO.

[Aragorn2002]

3 minutes ago, sid_burn said:

Its an interesting thesis but I don’t think Patton was assassinated. I view Patton through a spiritual lens. He was one of many war-like spirits sent to earth in a time of conflict. There were many such spirits sent to earth during WW2. When the war was over his spirit had no reason to be on the earth anymore and so he was recalled back to the heavens in a way that wouldn’t arouse suspicion to the mortals. 
 

I don’t think it’s a coincidence he died as the war ended. Without conflict to sustain the violent spirit it was recalled to Mars’ side. One has seen this before with the great warriors, they die when the conflict ends because they can’t live without it, they have no purpose. The fact that he used his final days on earth trying to enlighten the mortals should be viewed as a positive IMO.

Does your wife know you're out of bed?

[Probus]

These all sound like great topics for new threads. Guyz let's move on to hypotheticals about the Barbarossa campaign. 

[sid_burn]

8 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Does your wife know you're out of bed?

This thread is no place for dismissiveness, we are discussing hypotheticals after all. 
If you be anymore close minded you will turn into @Rinaldi

Edited August 14, 2021 by sid_burn

[SergeantSqook]

20 minutes ago, sid_burn said:

Its an interesting thesis but I don’t think Patton was assassinated. I view Patton through a spiritual lens. He was one of many war-like spirits sent to earth in a time of conflict. There were many such spirits sent to earth during WW2. When the war was over his spirit had no reason to be on the earth anymore and so he was recalled back to the heavens in a way that wouldn’t arouse suspicion to the mortals. 
 

I don’t think it’s a coincidence he died as the war ended. Without conflict to sustain the violent spirit it was recalled to Mars’ side. One has seen this before with the great warriors, they die when the conflict ends because they can’t live without it, they have no purpose. The fact that he used his final days on earth trying to enlighten the mortals should be viewed as a positive IMO.

You know what, I've never thought about that. Same thing happened to Jock Campbell (PBUH). Africa was saved, so they recalled him to balance it out for the Germans. I imagine the same was done to Patton to give the Soviets a fighting chance.

[Aragorn2002]

16 minutes ago, sid_burn said:

This thread is no place for dismissiveness, we are discussing hypotheticals after all. 
If you be anymore close minded you will turn into @Rinaldi

Not sure who's close minded here, but okay, let's keep an open mind. An even better idea would be to give this thread back to it's rightful owner and to continue on Barbarossa.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Aragorn2002

[Probus]

Is the Barbarossa Campaign achievable if:

1. If Barbarossa had started earlier (bypassing Yugoslavia for one).
2. When Barbarossa started, German forces were actually treated like liberators in many areas. No GPO.
3. Switched encoding methods (sounds like this one would be inconsequential).
4. Or if Barbarossa's primary objective was to secure the Southern oil fields (along with 2) would have significantly reduced logistical problems. 

Sounds like Battlefront is just going to have to add some DLC to Red Thunder so we can simulate Barbarossa and an early start date.

Also, @BFCElvis if we just fall into the trap of name calling or stay completely off track, please close the thread.  I wanted to spark some interesting discussions, not WWIII.

[sid_burn]

7 minutes ago, Probus said:

Is the Barbarossa Campaign achievable if:

1. If Barbarossa had started earlier (bypassing Yugoslavia for one).
2. When Barbarossa started, German forces were actually treated like liberators in many areas. No GPO.
3. Switched encoding methods (sounds like this one would be inconsequential).
4. Or if Barbarossa's primary objective was to secure the Southern oil fields (along with 2) would have significantly reduced logistical problems. 

Sounds like Battlefront is just going to have to add some DLC to Red Thunder so we can simulate Barbarossa and an early start date.

Also, @BFCElvis if we just fall into the trap of name calling or stay completely off track, please close the thread.  I wanted to spark some interesting discussions, not WWIII.

1) No, Yugoslavia wasn’t the reason it was delayed contrary to public myth.

2) No, it both requires the Germans to act completely differently and drastically overrates how anti-Soviet most people were.

3) Seems irrelevant.

4) Going for Moscow first was sensible. Driving into the caucuses while leaving large parts of central Russia unsubdued would be impossible. 
 

Now back to warrior spirits and Patton being assassinated. @SergeantSqookI agree it seems likely Jock was another of those warlike spirits. I also think it is no coincidence Mussolini “died” as the war ended, but in his case I see him more as a trickster spirit that is common in Native American folklore (like Loki or Wakdjunga).

[Erwin]

16 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Pm me when you've finished reading, if you like.

Am sure folks here would like to see your comments - perhaps on General Forum.  

[Probus]

26 minutes ago, sid_burn said:

Going for Moscow first was sensible. Driving into the caucuses while leaving large parts of central Russia unsubdued would be impossible.

Driving for the caucuses is not as crazy as you think.  That was Hitler's plan.  If Germany could have convinced the Ukraine that they were being liberated from Stalin, then the Ukraine is no longer a logistical nightmare that has to be defended. That puts the oil fields just a few hundred kilometers from 'friendly' territory. 

In the long run, after the war was won by a successful German campaign, the Nazis would still be Nazis. But to think that Hitler's gang wouldn't pull the wool over the Ukrainian's eyes is not that far out there. 

As for starting Barbarossa 5 weeks earlier, why do you say Yugoslavia had nothing to do with holding up troops Hitler wanted to use for Barbarossa?  If they had decided to allocate a holding force instead, that would have freed up ~2/3rds of his forces in that region. 5 weeks is quite a bit of time for good weather. 

[Freyberg]

39 minutes ago, Probus said:

Is the Barbarossa Campaign achievable if:

1. If Barbarossa had started earlier...

I really think that would have been enough.

By the time the freezing temperatures came, Hitler had destroyed a huge part of the Soviet armed forces - the remainder were hanging on by their fingernails. Zhukov's Siberians had the advantage of being winter-trained and equipped, which would have counted for little or nothing if the encirclement of Moscow had begun 6 weeks earlier.

Without the ice-road, Leningrad would have been fully encircled too. Kiev, Leningrad and Moscow accounted for most of the USSR's industrial capacity, and European Russia contained almost all the Soviet population. They would have had no human or economic resources left.

The morale effects of such a loss might well have broken the extremely precarious hold the Communist Party had on the Soviet people.

And with Siberia denuded of its garrison, why wouldn't the Japanese have attacked from the East - with nothing to stop them? Truly the fate of the world hung in the balance in 1941...

[Probus]

2 hours ago, SergeantSqook said:

Genuinely curious given that he died in a car accident which doesn't seem too related to any amounts of rudeness or honesty

About Patton.  It's an interesting conspiracy theory:

Dunno how much truth there is to it, but that video might tell you more about why some folks believe he was silenced and about covers all that I know about it. 

[Aragorn2002]

24 minutes ago, Probus said:

Driving for the caucuses is not as crazy as you think.  That was Hitler's plan.  If Germany could have convinced the Ukraine that they were being liberated from Stalin, then the Ukraine is no longer a logistical nightmare that has to be defended. That puts the oil fields just a few hundred kilometers from 'friendly' territory. 

 

Definitely a missed opportunity. After the terrible famine and terror, brought upon the Ukraine by Moscow, as described in books like Bloodlands, many Ukrainian men would have been willing to fight on the German side. Many did, but with better treatment the Germans could have swelled their ranks even more.

24 minutes ago, Freyberg said:

 

Without the ice-road, Leningrad would have been fully encircled too. Kiev, Leningrad and Moscow accounted for most of the USSR's industrial capacity, and European Russia contained almost all the Soviet population. They would have had no human or economic resources left.

 

Many factories were relocated or en route to the Urals, an operation long planned and prepared before the German attack. And the Red army took as many serviceable men with it during their retreat. But perhaps the loss of Moscow and Leningrad would have been decisive. I doubt it, but who knows. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Aragorn2002

[sid_burn]

57 minutes ago, Probus said:

Driving for the caucuses is not as crazy as you think.  That was Hitler's plan.  If Germany could have convinced the Ukraine that they were being liberated from Stalin, then the Ukraine is no longer a logistical nightmare that has to be defended. That puts the oil fields just a few hundred kilometers from 'friendly' territory. 

In the long run, after the war was won by a successful German campaign, the Nazis would still be Nazis. But to think that Hitler's gang wouldn't pull the wool over the Ukrainian's eyes is not that far out there. 

As for starting Barbarossa 5 weeks earlier, why do you say Yugoslavia had nothing to do with holding up troops Hitler wanted to use for Barbarossa?  If they had decided to allocate a holding force instead, that would have freed up ~2/3rds of his forces in that region. 5 weeks is quite a bit of time for good weather. 

The delay to Barbarossa was due in large part to the need to expand infrastructure in western Poland for the invasion, which was taking longer than necessary. Likewise, the spring thaw had come late and rivers were still swollen. Even accounting for all that, historians generally view the delay as ultimately being of little real consequence in the grand scheme of things. 

[dbsapp]

To give you the real reason why Barbarossa failed - and to end this nonsense about potential uprising of Soviet people - I will give you some quotes from German sources from the first weeks of war:

 

Yet, in spite of its success, the panzer group’s war diary includes the observation:

Where the enemy appears he f i ghts tenaciously and courageously to the death.

Defectors and those seeking to surrender were not reported from any positions.

The struggle, as a result, will be harder than those in Poland and the Western campaign.

In similar fashion the commander of the XXXXIII Army Corps in Kluge’s 4th Army, General of Infantry Gotthard Heinrici, wrote home to his family on 24 June that the Soviet solder fought ‘very hard’. Heinrici then concluded: ‘He is a much better soldier than the Frenchman.

Extremely tough, devious and deceitful.’

As Bock noted for 24 June:

The Russians are defending themselves desperately; heavy counterattacks near Grodno against the VIII and XX Army Corps; Panzer Group Guderian is also being held up near Slonim by enemy counterattacks.

ne regiment of the division was assigned to assault the Soviet defences which resulted in a tenacious three-day battle. The company commander’s battalion alone suffered 150 casualties. In another infantry division from 4th Army, Lieutenant Georg Kreuter noted on 25 June: ‘We cannot move forward, everywhere there are small battles. Above all at night. .. Very close to me four off i cers have fallen. They will soon be buried together with other comrades in the town [Ozgmowicz]. Under no circumstances can this continue!!’

The following account comes from Colonel Erhard Raus of the neigh-bouring battle group:

It was not so much the numerical superiority of the enemy which made the situation precarious for our command and troops, but the totally unexpected appearance of colossal tanks for which German tanks and anti-tank weapons appeared to be no match. ..Even the concentrated fire of the artillery and all other heavy weapons of the Kampfgruppe [Battle Group] was not able to keep off the steel pachyderms. Though enveloped in fire and smoke, they immediately started attacking and crushed every thing in their paths. Untroubled by the shower of heavy howitzer shells and earth falling down upon them, they attacked road block 121 in spite of the f l anking firee of the anti-tank guns from the wooded areas, rolled over the anti-tank guns dug in there and broke into the artillery area.

About one hundred friendly tanks, one-third of them were Panzer IVs, now assembled for a counterattack. Some of them faced the enemy in front, but the bulk made an assault from the f l anks. From three sides, their shells hammered against the steel giants, but the effort to destroy them was in vain. On the other hand, very soon we had casualties ourselves.

. On 26 June Halder stated in his diary ‘Army Group South is advancing slowly, unfortunately with considerable losses.’

The Operations Off i cer at OKH responsible for Army Group South further noted: ‘Russians are standing their ground excellently;

down here there is exceptionally systematic command.’

Following the war from his off i ce in Berlin, Goebbels noted in his diary:

‘The f i rst big pocket is beginning to close...But they are f i ghting well and have learned a great deal even since Sunday.’76At the front, a liaison off i cer from Panzer Group 3 visiting the 20th Panzer Division reported:

‘Of the enemy there exists the impression that his infantry is many times numerically superior and very good to the bitter end. Colonel von Bis-mark used the expression “fantastic”.’

Already on 26 June Ernst-G¨ unter Merten, a soldier in 4th Army, noted the diff i culty of f i ghting in the densely wooded terrain.

These bloody Russian forests! One loses the overview of who is a friend and who isanenemy.Soweareshootingatourselves. ..TheIIcompanywasencircledand came back with 55 men. ‘Worse than at Verdun!’ said Lieutenant-Colonel von L¨ ohneysen.

h). Yet Hoth’s commentary on the motivation of enemy soldiers was equally enlightening and, if accu-rate, constituted a decidedly adverse development for the Germans. ‘The Russian soldier’, Hoth judged, ‘f i ghts not out of fear, rather idea. He does not want to return to the tsarist time.’ 

[Aragorn2002]

53 minutes ago, Probus said:

About Patton.  It's an interesting conspiracy theory:

Dunno how much truth there is to it, but that video might tell you more about why some folks believe he was silenced and about covers all that I know about it. 

Interesting. Didn't know about the failed rescue raid and his good relation with Montgomery. Still recommend reading the book I've mentioned. And then make up your own mind.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Aragorn2002

[Artkin]

4 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Better, but still not funny. Unless you think the GULAG concentration camps were a joke.

Gulag conditions were significantly better than German POW conditions. Significantly better.

[Aragorn2002]

5 minutes ago, dbsapp said:

To give you the real reason why Barbarossa failed - and to end this nonsense about potential uprising of Soviet people - I will give you some quotes from German sources from the first weeks of war:

 

Yet, in spite of its success, the panzer group’s war diary includes the observation:

Where the enemy appears he f i ghts tenaciously and courageously to the death.

Defectors and those seeking to surrender were not reported from any positions.

The struggle, as a result, will be harder than those in Poland and the Western campaign.

In similar fashion the commander of the XXXXIII Army Corps in Kluge’s 4th Army, General of Infantry Gotthard Heinrici, wrote home to his family on 24 June that the Soviet solder fought ‘very hard’. Heinrici then concluded: ‘He is a much better soldier than the Frenchman.

Extremely tough, devious and deceitful.’

As Bock noted for 24 June:

The Russians are defending themselves desperately; heavy counterattacks near Grodno against the VIII and XX Army Corps; Panzer Group Guderian is also being held up near Slonim by enemy counterattacks.

ne regiment of the division was assigned to assault the Soviet defences which resulted in a tenacious three-day battle. The company commander’s battalion alone suffered 150 casualties. In another infantry division from 4th Army, Lieutenant Georg Kreuter noted on 25 June: ‘We cannot move forward, everywhere there are small battles. Above all at night. .. Very close to me four off i cers have fallen. They will soon be buried together with other comrades in the town [Ozgmowicz]. Under no circumstances can this continue!!’

The following account comes from Colonel Erhard Raus of the neigh-bouring battle group:

It was not so much the numerical superiority of the enemy which made the situation precarious for our command and troops, but the totally unexpected appearance of colossal tanks for which German tanks and anti-tank weapons appeared to be no match. ..Even the concentrated fire of the artillery and all other heavy weapons of the Kampfgruppe [Battle Group] was not able to keep off the steel pachyderms. Though enveloped in fire and smoke, they immediately started attacking and crushed every thing in their paths. Untroubled by the shower of heavy howitzer shells and earth falling down upon them, they attacked road block 121 in spite of the f l anking firee of the anti-tank guns from the wooded areas, rolled over the anti-tank guns dug in there and broke into the artillery area.

About one hundred friendly tanks, one-third of them were Panzer IVs, now assembled for a counterattack. Some of them faced the enemy in front, but the bulk made an assault from the f l anks. From three sides, their shells hammered against the steel giants, but the effort to destroy them was in vain. On the other hand, very soon we had casualties ourselves.

. On 26 June Halder stated in his diary ‘Army Group South is advancing slowly, unfortunately with considerable losses.’

The Operations Off i cer at OKH responsible for Army Group South further noted: ‘Russians are standing their ground excellently;

down here there is exceptionally systematic command.’

Following the war from his off i ce in Berlin, Goebbels noted in his diary:

‘The f i rst big pocket is beginning to close...But they are f i ghting well and have learned a great deal even since Sunday.’76At the front, a liaison off i cer from Panzer Group 3 visiting the 20th Panzer Division reported:

‘Of the enemy there exists the impression that his infantry is many times numerically superior and very good to the bitter end. Colonel von Bis-mark used the expression “fantastic”.’

Already on 26 June Ernst-G¨ unter Merten, a soldier in 4th Army, noted the diff i culty of f i ghting in the densely wooded terrain.

These bloody Russian forests! One loses the overview of who is a friend and who isanenemy.Soweareshootingatourselves. ..TheIIcompanywasencircledand came back with 55 men. ‘Worse than at Verdun!’ said Lieutenant-Colonel von L¨ ohneysen.

h). Yet Hoth’s commentary on the motivation of enemy soldiers was equally enlightening and, if accu-rate, constituted a decidedly adverse development for the Germans. ‘The Russian soldier’, Hoth judged, ‘f i ghts not out of fear, rather idea. He does not want to return to the tsarist time.’ 

I agree that we can't rule out that the resistance of the Red army might have something to do with the failure of Barbarossa.

[Aragorn2002]

5 minutes ago, Artkin said:

Gulag conditions were significantly better than German POW conditions. Significantly better.

I take your word for it.