Trailer for new Dutch Liberation of Holland film (some MG)

[Lethaface]

On 8/4/2021 at 4:47 AM, LongLeftFlank said:

Ha ha, you would like my Oostindischer friends, Aragorn. Their parents returned to postwar Holland with stories of beheadings, eating rats etc. and their families were all like, 'that's nothing, we had to go without cheese for a whole winter in '44-45!'

So many of them simply re-expatriated, where being the scion of British colonial administrators myself, made friends with their kids. We are 19th century people.

Funny thing is, we also have a lot of Asian friends (you know, the downtrodden victims of all this) who think in much the same way. They would far sooner have skipped the entire Communist thing and negotiated peaceful independence with the Europeans, who were on their way out anyway (plantation agriculture having long passed its peak as a money machine). Then the Pacific century would have begun at least 50 years sooner.

(sorry, wandering well OT here)

Not disagreeing on what would have ultimately worked better macro economically / geopolitically. However, I do think the sentiment in much of political NL at the time was at least a bit hypocrite; having just been freed from occupation by the Germans we felt the need to wage war to continue our occupation of the Indonesian archipelago.

Also I'm not that impressed by US foreign policy at the time (or UN), but I'd say probably the Dutch could have done better and work out something allowing all groups to keep their dignity while moving forward. I think originally the sentiment was to just get 'de Oost' back and send the army at it to get it done. 

Did some reading about it quite a while ago, as my granddad fought the whole war (46-49) and have some interesting pictures from the time. Among the pictures are plenty which show that they (the soldiers) had a good relation with (part of the) local people. Unfortunately my grandmother turned in a trophy revolver he captured there.
Also unfortunately I didn't get to know him as he passed away shortly before I was born, but my father told me he never really wanted to talk much about it (apart from telling my father how they were once strafed by an airplane and giving him some supposed cannon projectile from that encounter). Another interesting anecdote he gave my father was that his fellow soldiers from the province Drenthe always died first (without explaining why).

Having lived in Malaysia for a while (ex-wife Malay) I have some understanding of the culture and sure is a great part of the world to live!

[LongLeftFlank]

Well, without making too many excuses for the purely extractive VOC colonial plantation project of 3 centuries, beginning in the 1910s the Dutch did begin, belatedly (and following the British example), to make very serious investments in local infrastructure and education.

1. As I understand it, having had the good fortune not to lose a generation of youth in the Great War, the Netherlands recruited, trained and sent out a fresh cadre of talented administrators and engineers. These rapidly displaced the post-VOC old guard, and delivered very remarkable development in the 1920s-1930s. They also opened the colonies to (regulated) foreign investment, attracting significant capital from Britain, America... and Japan.

....On the infra side, Bandung's Art Deco district (and the military cantonment now housing the infamous Siliwangi Division) is still quite wonderful, along with similar though smaller developments in Surabaja and Semarang. I've visited a 1937 hydro plant in southwest Java that is still running beautifully today. The railway system (there's a wonderful museum in Semarang) is still a tremendous asset, although nothing much has been done with it since 1945....

2.  Naturally, the elite Indonesians the Dutch trained up to share the administration (and the wealth) in their own homelands were heavily nationalist-socialist in outlook, in the intellectual fashion of the era. They wanted the Dutch out, more or less instantly. 

The Dutch police authorities, like the British and French, were ill equipped to deal with bright student 'subversives' from the favoured classes, so their scattershot crackdowns merely generated resentment without quashing the movement. And as you note, the imperial model had started to come under criticism back home, as early as the 1890s.

There was also the ambiguous position of the large (non Muslim) Chinese commercial class. They were overwhelmingly in favor of Sun Yat Sen (who, let's face it, was pretty much a commie, though totally ineffective as anything more than a figurehead) and hence left leaning, at least the nonpropertied ones. Nonetheless, the bigotry and resentments of the Indonesian bumis made it hard to make common cause.

3. The 1942 Japanese invasion wiped out the Dutch administrative cadre, along with about half a million locals, including Chinese, Muslim datus and slave workers. After realizing the Japanese were not in fact their liberators, but slavemasters, the nationalist cadres went underground where they learned the basics of guerrilla warfare and organization.

4. In 1945, things got violent pretty fast upon proclamation of Merdeka. In a number of places, most notoriously Surabaja, Dutch families who had survived the Jap camps were massacred by locals. This didn't incline the arriving Dutch forces to negotiate. Since the revolutionaries were no Viet Minh, being riven by intrigue and personality clashes in the ancient Javanese palace backstabbing tradition, the Dutch and their local allies (basically everyone who wasn't Muslim or Chinese) were able to regain control over the major cities. But their limited local support base (the Japs had killed the conservative Muslim leaders) led to an extended stalemate, until they finally gave up and exited.

[Lethaface]

On 8/10/2021 at 6:05 PM, LongLeftFlank said:

Well, without making too many excuses for the purely extractive VOC colonial plantation project of 3 centuries, beginning in the 1910s the Dutch did begin, belatedly (and following the British example), to make very serious investments in local infrastructure and education.

1. As I understand it, having had the good fortune not to lose a generation of youth in the Great War, the Netherlands recruited, trained and sent out a fresh cadre of talented administrators and engineers. These rapidly displaced the post-VOC old guard, and delivered very remarkable development in the 1920s-1930s. They also opened the colonies to (regulated) foreign investment, attracting significant capital from Britain, America... and Japan.

....On the infra side, Bandung's Art Deco district (and the military cantonment now housing the infamous Siliwangi Division) is still quite wonderful, along with similar though smaller developments in Surabaja and Semarang. I've visited a 1937 hydro plant in southwest Java that is still running beautifully today. The railway system (there's a wonderful museum in Semarang) is still a tremendous asset, although nothing much has been done with it since 1945....

2.  Naturally, the elite Indonesians the Dutch trained up to share the administration (and the wealth) in their own homelands were heavily nationalist-socialist in outlook, in the intellectual fashion of the era. They wanted the Dutch out, more or less instantly. 

The Dutch police authorities, like the British and French, were ill equipped to deal with bright student 'subversives' from the favoured classes, so their scattershot crackdowns merely generated resentment without quashing the movement. And as you note, the imperial model had started to come under criticism back home, as early as the 1890s.

There was also the ambiguous position of the large (non Muslim) Chinese commercial class. They were overwhelmingly in favor of Sun Yat Sen (who, let's face it, was pretty much a commie, though totally ineffective as anything more than a figurehead) and hence left leaning, at least the nonpropertied ones. Nonetheless, the bigotry and resentments of the Indonesian bumis made it hard to make common cause.

3. The 1942 Japanese invasion wiped out the Dutch administrative cadre, along with about half a million locals, including Chinese, Muslim datus and slave workers. After realizing the Japanese were not in fact their liberators, but slavemasters, the nationalist cadres went underground where they learned the basics of guerrilla warfare and organization.

4. In 1945, things got violent pretty fast upon proclamation of Merdeka. In a number of places, most notoriously Surabaja, Dutch families who had survived the Jap camps were massacred by locals. This didn't incline the arriving Dutch forces to negotiate. Since the revolutionaries were no Viet Minh, being riven by intrigue and personality clashes in the ancient Javanese palace backstabbing tradition, the Dutch and their local allies (basically everyone who wasn't Muslim or Chinese) were able to regain control over the major cities. But their limited local support base (the Japs had killed the conservative Muslim leaders) led to an extended stalemate, until they finally gave up and exited.

Thanks for that detailed background, you obviously know much more than me about that history

All sounds rather fair and accurate as far as I'm able to judge that. I too don't think that colonialism was all in bad faith or extractive. Obviously the reason was originally purely self interest and looking to create trade monopolies (which was the go to at that time in history), but where people go good and bad things happen. Plenty of things that were happening from late 1800s were for the good of many people.

Although one could also argue that the Dutch made good use of the Javanese elite and their ways, while the Javanese learned a thing or two from the Dutch. The privilidged status they had before surely didn't help with regards to their behavior afterwards. On again another note how we / Dutch dealt with the Moluccan KNIL soldiers doesn't really deserve an award either.

Not that I think think everything is the blame of the Dutch and personally I feel 0 guilt; I wasn't even born yet. 

Anyway my point was more from the perspective of Dutch politics and sentiment inside the Netherlands towards the whole thing at the time. And how the wars are framed (as a police action), especially from people who didn't contribute a thing to the pre-Indonesian development. The soldiers mostly just did their job, of course every tree has rotten apples. I also understand the tragedy for people who were actually living in the East.

In the end how it went is rather unfortunate and the US foreign policy surely didn't help a dime. 

Malaysia has it's own share of issues but has gotten, at least imo, much better out of that period. 

[LongLeftFlank]

7 hours ago, Lethaface said:

Thanks for that detailed background, you obviously know much more than me about that history

All sounds rather fair and accurate as far as I'm able to judge that. I too don't think that colonialism was all in bad faith or extractive. Obviously the reason was originally purely self interest and looking to create trade monopolies (which was the go to at that time in history), but where people go good and bad things happen. Plenty of things that were happening from late 1800s were for the good of many people.

Although one could also argue that the Dutch made good use of the Javanese elite and their ways, while the Javanese learned a thing or two from the Dutch. The privilidged status they had before surely didn't help with regards to their behavior afterwards. On again another note how we / Dutch dealt with the Moluccan KNIL soldiers doesn't really deserve an award either.

Not that I think think everything is the blame of the Dutch and personally I feel 0 guilt; I wasn't even born yet. 

Anyway my point was more from the perspective of Dutch politics and sentiment inside the Netherlands towards the whole thing at the time. And how the wars are framed (as a police action), especially from people who didn't contribute a thing to the pre-Indonesian development. The soldiers mostly just did their job, of course every tree has rotten apples. I also understand the tragedy for people who were actually living in the East.

In the end how it went is rather unfortunate and the US foreign policy surely didn't help a dime. 

Malaysia has it's own share of issues but has gotten, at least imo, much better out of that period. 

Of course, and as a bright young Javanese, whether of the elite or of more humble origins or even Chinese (who'd been in entrepots like Semarang and Cirebon since the 1400s), I'd want the supercilious Dutchmen gone as well.

But the bit the anticolonial Americans missed (never having better motives for all the trouble they caused), was that 'the universal right of national self determination' is all very nice, but who is getting to define 'nation'?

In most cases, all you are doing is handing the stick from one set of Exploiters/Oppressors to a different set. In this case, from the Dutch Empire to the Javanese Empire. Javanese were and are deeply disliked, even by other Indonesian Muslims (and they don't get along with each other especially well either, lol).

And also, effective revolutionaries tend to make awful civil leaders. They know a lot more about disrupting and destroying than saving and investing; the best that can be hoped for is that they take some bribes and step out of the way.

But anyway, we are now well into Politix here, so I will probably comment no more on nonmilitary topics.

[waffelmann]

It seems we can watch it in october on netflix!

[John Kettler]

Took some digging, but US release has yet to occur. It will be released on both Netflix and the Internet October 15, 2021. The Dutch release was December 2020.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10521092/releaseinfo

 

Regards,

John Kettler

[chuckdyke]

2 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Took some digging, but US release has yet to occur.

I doubt it as no US troops were involved as far as I know. I could be wrong.

[danfrodo]

Just finished this movie (Forgotten Battle, Netflix).  I thought it was VERY good, especially as compared to most the drivel that is WW2 themed.  Good battles, good story.  Three unrelated young people whose stories start completely separately (one on eastern front) then collide in fighting in Scheldte estuary. 

 

[Redwolf]

It's on Netflix US since Friday.

It is surprisingly decent compare to most other recent war movie offerings.

[MOS:96B2P]

Watched Forgotten Battle on Netflix last night.  Good show.  

[James Crowley]

Excellent war film on a subject that gets little attention.

High production values and well edited; a strong and believable story set in a factual battle, with impressive battle scenes.

Recommended.

[Erwin]

Some good footage of uniforms, equipment and battle.  But, rather boring from a dramatic story POV.  It's worth just to fast forward through it for the good bits.

[chuckdyke]

The Battle for the Causeway was only a small part of the battle. Later proved it was unnecessary but the Canadian morale never broke even as they lost most of their officers. So the Dutch resistance didn't play a key part in it but it is after all an movie.