Cold War C2 Info Sharing

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

Good morning. 

I am currently playing a PBEM as the US so I won’t give away my exact force composition but let’s say I have mech infantry squad who spotted enemy on turn 2 and all my forces are under the same higher org (battalion level in this case). How long should it take for the info to be shared with all the other elements on the map? 

We’re on turn 7 now and their platoon leader and platoon all have the info shared via radio but not one of my other forces have any of the info. I would expect it to be quite slow in WW2 games but kinda assumed by this time it would be a lot faster (especially as the US).

MMM

 

[George MC]

Are you sure they are all part of the same parent organisation?
 

If not you’d have to place a command unit from each parent organisation  next to each other to enable the two different C2 networks to share info. 
 

If so then check they have active C2 links ie no-one on the chain has a goosed radio for example. 
 

Other possibility is the mission has some sort of active comms disruption eg electronic warfare which will muck up comms and info sharing. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by George MC

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

All in the same org, all lights are green and radio icons present and no EW set for our QB. The info to the rest of the platoon was shared pretty much instantaneously, just no other unit has the deets, and they need the deets. 

It is night and misty but that shouldn’t affect it and like I say it was shared amongst the platoon fine. Very strange. 

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

Two more turns down and still nothing.  Some of the other platoons are in contact now but others are completely oblivious, it may be I’m expecting too much but that seems slow to me. I may have to resort to dispatching a runner. 

I’ll keep an eye on it in other games and if it happens again then I’ll report it as a potential bug

MMM

[A Canadian Cat]

It sounds like it's working but slower than you expected. I'm not sure what kind of timings are "correct" but I do know that we players tend to be an impatient lot and think we should not have to wait. My guess is that if the info is flowing then it will get there and be a reasonable simulation of reality.

If you really think it is too slow you might need to get some real life accounts to support it and see what everyone thinks.

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

9 minutes ago, IanL said:

It sounds like it's working but slower than you expected. I'm not sure what kind of timings are "correct" but I do know that we players tend to be an impatient lot and think we should not have to wait. My guess is that if the info is flowing then it will get there and be a reasonable simulation of reality.

If you really think it is too slow you might need to get some real life accounts to support it and see what everyone thinks.

Oh It absolutely could be me being impatient, Cold War is the first non-WW2 title I've played so I would just shrug and wait in the WW2 games but cos it was modern-ish I was expecting it to be a lot quicker, based on no experience of course  I was hoping someone with knowledge of how it worked IRL back then would provide some answers cos I'm sleep deprived (kids) and therefore lazy. Sounds like I need to find some time to do the research, thanks for the response.

MMM

[A Canadian Cat]

20 minutes ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

I was hoping someone with knowledge of how it worked IRL back then would provide some answers

Yeah, and that is certainly possible. There are veterans from that era around here. My own impressions, again not based on experience, is that the 70s and 80s did have better and more reliable equipment the actual tracking of information was still done with the same tech as in WW2. I would not expect a significant difference in spotting contact information spreading. But again I don't really have any expertise either.

[Combatintman]

I'm reasonably sure it would be the same for the US but in the British Army of the time, platoons will be on a company net so as soon as the sighting platoon sends in their contact/sighting report every platoon and the company HQ would have the information.  Battalion would be a different net so passage upwards would be from the company HQ on the battalion net which also goes sideways to all of the other callsigns on that net (i.e., the other companies in the battalion).  I can't speak for the Soviets as I am nowhere near my reference materials but I don't think it was that much different.

[George MC]

5 hours ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

Oh It absolutely could be me being impatient, Cold War is the first non-WW2 title I've played so I would just shrug and wait in the WW2 games but cos it was modern-ish I was expecting it to be a lot quicker, based on no experience of course  I was hoping someone with knowledge of how it worked IRL back then would provide some answers cos I'm sleep deprived (kids) and therefore lazy. Sounds like I need to find some time to do the research, thanks for the response.

MMM

As others have mentioned - still basically WWII comms+. Also units with radios who are moving will have to stop  which gives time for the RTO to access their radio net and give/receive reports. Are the units involved moving at all? That will have an impact also.

Ah sleep deprivation - yeah moved past that stage (sorta!) mind it rather hazily. Amazing how little sleep you can get by on though!

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

Thanks all. I had some time this evening so I did a quick test. I set the time for 1 hour and used the same map and conditions as my QB, and used different, but similar, force setup for the US. I selected a balanced battalion task force with 1 company with 2 x tank platoons, 2 x mech infantry platoons and a antitank section. I added the headquarters company but stripped it back so it was only the scout platoon and kept the HQs off map to get under the points limit (which is what I've done in my QB).

I had a company of T64s sitting in the deployment zone and moved the scout platoon away from the other company so they couldn't share the info locally. I sent one scout squad off to have a peek over a hill and they got the sound contacts on turn 2 and a solid spot the next turn. The rest of the scout platoon got the info the next turn but the mech infantry company never got the info, I ran through the whole hour and nothing. Everything was green as far as links go and nobody moved and no EW set.

I then reloaded a save and sent one of the mech infantry squads up to have a peek at a different deployment zone where I had a platoon of T64s, well away from the scout squad, and they too got a spot pretty quickly and within 2 minutes the rest of the company all had the info.

Not sure if that's intended behaviour? Could it be because the company and battalion HQs are off-map? I haven't tested with them on map but I will if I get time over the next few days. Tired now, going to bed.

MMM

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

 I added the headquarters company but stripped it back so it was only the scout platoon and kept the HQs off map

If I understand correctly the vertical chain of command is broken.  The scout platoon reports to the HQ Company which reports to the Battalion HQ.  The Battalion HQ then vertically shares with Alpha Company, Bravo Company etc.  

By keeping the scout platoon HQ off map (deleting it) the vertical C2 chain for the scout platoon was broken. 

The below topic has some C2 information that you might find interesting:

 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by MOS:96B2P

[arkhangelsk2021]

I also get the impression that information transmission is unjustifiably slow. By the time you get to Iron, even the positions intra-platoon go off the air, to say nothing of enemy contacts. I'd like to think a platoon commander, not shrouded in smoke, should have a fairly good grip on the positions of his three squads when they are just trailing behind him, in column, on a frigging road, but nah...

Well, if you get really sick of it, there's always the Basic Training Difficulty Setting. In fact, the next thing they should try is to split the difficulty setting up into multiple options for more granularity - we should be allowed to split say response times for artillery and buddy aid from spotting rules.

In fact, if we are really shooting for realism, based on their real radio nets the Soviets and Americans may have different spotting propagation rules. The current rules are basically the American system with multiple tiers though the info flow IMO should be a bit smoother. The Soviets tend more towards a single net for the battalion. There's clearly a tradeoff here - the Soviets must report less over the radio, at least at the lower levels. So once out of voice range with platoon, they may be liable to not report, or to report only important things like tanks and ATGMs rather than a rifle squad. On the other hand, once the information is at least at platoon level, it "borg-spots" because the platoon leader would shout the info all over the battalion net.

Edited June 23, 2021 by arkhangelsk2021
Some clarifications of proposal.

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

8 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

If I understand correctly the vertical chain of command is broken.  The scout platoon reports to the HQ Company which reports to the Battalion HQ.  The Battalion HQ then vertically shares with Alpha Company, Bravo Company etc.  

By keeping the scout platoon HQ off map (deleting it) the vertical C2 chain for the scout platoon was broken. 

The below topic has some C2 information that you might find interesting:

 

 

All platoon HQs are on map, it’s just the Coy and Bn HQs that I deleted. All the lights were green and no one was, according to the interface at least, out of C2. 

MMM

Edited June 23, 2021 by Monty's Mighty Moustache

[domfluff]

If there are C2 links off-map, they'll take longer to communicate. With both the company and battalion commander off-map, that'll take longer still.

Even if there's no hard coded degradation of timing here (which is something I haven't tested, but does seem to be the case), then an on-map battalion commander can receive multiple strands of information, whilst the off-map commander will not - consider something like a battalion commander standing next to their 2IC, they might be transferring spots through the radio net, but also getting anything horizontally from the 2IC unit, and this kind of incidental thing can add up, possibly by accident.

I haven't seen anything particularly unusual about the Cold War spotting or information sharing (aside from the M113 bug, obviously). I *do* find it amusing that most of the early complaints about the title were alternately "BMP spotting is far too good" and "My BMPs are totally blind".



 

Edited June 23, 2021 by domfluff

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

9 minutes ago, domfluff said:

If there are C2 links off-map, they'll take longer to communicate. With both the company and battalion commander off-map, that'll take longer still

Yeah I expected that but nothing in 58 minutes? Like I said it may be I’m expecting too much. Will have to do another test with them on map and see if that makes a difference. 

 

11 hours ago, George MC said:

Ah sleep deprivation - yeah moved past that stage (sorta!) mind it rather hazily. Amazing how little sleep you can get by on though!

I have a 4 year old that likes getting up at 5:30 every morning and a 1 year old who’s teething and up a few times a night. It’s killing us

[domfluff]

58 minutes would be a problem, and sounds like a broken link somewhere. That's definitely worth testing in clean conditions.

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

OK I just did a test with the Coy and Bn HQs on map and everyone had the spotting info within 4-5 minutes (tanks got it a bit quicker than the mech infantry and TOW section). There’s nothing in the manual that says that C2 is adversely affected when the HQ units are not on the map...

[domfluff]

Most of the C2 mechanics aren't in the manual, so that point (at least) is nothing new.

[George MC]

11 hours ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

I have a 4 year old that likes getting up at 5:30 every morning and a 1 year old who’s teething and up a few times a night. It’s killing us

Man that’s a tough one. On the plus side it never lasts as long as it feels, but still when you’re in it… 

 

[George MC]

6 hours ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

OK I just did a test with the Coy and Bn HQs on map and everyone had the spotting info within 4-5 minutes (tanks got it a bit quicker than the mech infantry and TOW section). There’s nothing in the manual that says that C2 is adversely affected when the HQ units are not on the map...

I’d have to double check but if higher HQs are set as reinforcements it still maintains C2. But if dented it breaks the link. As you say this is not clear in the manual. 
 

I must admit I pay way more attention to maintaining C2 in scenarios now that I know this! 

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

10 hours ago, George MC said:

I’d have to double check but if higher HQs are set as reinforcements it still maintains C2. But if dented it breaks the link. As you say this is not clear in the manual. 
 

I must admit I pay way more attention to maintaining C2 in scenarios now that I know this! 

It works on the company net if they are off map but not at battalion level. It’s quite misleading as the lights are all green and the platoon HQs all have the radio icon in their audio comms box which makes me think everything would be shared. I haven’t tested but this may be affecting the entire engine and could well be the intended behaviour, perhaps @BFCElviscan advise. 

I’ll certainly be making sure they are on map from now on in QBs and won’t delete them so I can squeeze in an extra vehicle or artillery. 

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

17 hours ago, domfluff said:

Most of the C2 mechanics aren't in the manual, so that point (at least) is nothing new.

Haha yeah this is very true

MMM

[dbsapp]

The main thing I learnt is to keep the leaders of different formations close to each other.

E.g.if you have 2 batallions HQ present, place them in close proximity, so the batallons can share info between them.

The same goes for reconnaissance, mortars hq, observers etc. 

[Erwin]

What is puzzling is that IIRC HQ's in the real world are not located close to one another as one doesn't want one shell to kill two or more Bn HQ's.  So, not sure what is being simulated here.

[dbsapp]

58 minutes ago, Erwin said:

What is puzzling is that IIRC HQ's in the real world are not located close to one another as one doesn't want one shell to kill two or more Bn HQ's.  So, not sure what is being simulated here.

Yeah, it looks strange and artificial, but it works!