How can one determine if a stream is passable or not?

[Artkin]

I had this kind of error happen on the Berlin map. One of the destroyed train bridges over the SE spree looks passable, but isn't. 

[nikolai]

Thanks! So, it indeed looks like a bug with cursor hovering. Any ideas how to best inform developers about it?

[chuckdyke]

2 hours ago, nikolai said:

Every time pixel soldiers do some nonsense

People do silly things in real life too. Like putting a grenade on the parapet and throwing the pin. Like here there is a natural explanation. I always accept the decision of the AI and have a more enjoyable game. 9 times out of 10 there is a valid explanation as is here. Doors is another one sometimes infantry take the back door in full view of the enemy.

[sburke]

6 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

People do silly things in real life too. Like putting a grenade on the parapet and throwing the pin. Like here there is a natural explanation. I always accept the decision of the AI and have a more enjoyable game. 9 times out of 10 there is a valid explanation as is here. Doors is another one sometimes infantry take the back door in full view of the enemy.

some times.  And some times it actually is a bug.  We've run into that with some doors in specific building configurations.  As to this one, not sure.  It may be a limitation of the cursor hovering but as the OP notes, the vehicle can not make the move he is attempting to plan and yet it never tells him that.  Could I figure that out from the terrain types?  Yep, but still the tool for planning is failing him.  Can't hurt to ask the brain in a jar.  Nikolai I'll turn it in.

[chuckdyke]

10 minutes ago, sburke said:

Yep, but still the tool for planning is failing him. 

If it is the Muddy Affair his version is different from mine. I don't have a TD just Shermans. I tried it out I made it to the stream and plotted a move to the other side and the Sherman took the road and got blown to pieces. The stream on the far left is some distance away if that is the one. I played it some time ago and I stuck to the roads instead and my attack was from the right to left not from left to right. There was a warning in the scenario the terrain is not tank friendly because of the terrain conditions. He better takes it up with the author. Sometimes they do things like that, in Seven Winds there was a heavy forest tile under the bocage which is an obstacle for a Churchill tank even after my engineers blew a gap. I don't use cursors as I don't rely on them. Tiles is the system they use and don't have a LOS unless you are close, or the terrain is bare.  The stream as somebody illustrated is touched by the triangles of the impassable terrain. Not a bug as such. The cursor system is not perfect. 

[sburke]

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Tiles is the system they use and don't have a LOS unless you are close, or the terrain is bare.  The stream as somebody illustrated is touched by the triangles of the impassable terrain. Not a bug as such. The cursor system is not perfect. 

I am pretty aware of that  And as to whether BF considers that a bug or not, that is above my paygrade.  hey wait a minute.. I get paid?

[chuckdyke]

10 minutes ago, sburke said:

BF considers that a bug or not

Don't hold your breath going by the doors of "Knock them all Down" in FB which I call a bug. Troops can't enter some doors in buildings, but they never fixed it. Neither the bridge in the 'Road to Nijmegen'. Brooks and streams are a grey area. I let the units do the pathfinding and not the cursor. Tip pause the unit and do the risky business in the last 15 sec of a turn. In a muddy affair it was a Warno or Warning Order about the terrain, don't ignore the briefing. The game is winnable by using the roads 90% of the time. 

[nikolai]

3 hours ago, sburke said:

Can't hurt to ask the brain in a jar.  Nikolai I'll turn it in.

Thank you!

[sburke]

14 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Don't hold your breath going by the doors of "Knock them all Down" in FB which I call a bug. Troops can't enter some doors in buildings, but they never fixed it. Neither the bridge in the 'Road to Nijmegen'. Brooks and streams are a grey area. I let the units do the pathfinding and not the cursor. Tip pause the unit and do the risky business in the last 15 sec of a turn. In a muddy affair it was a Warno or Warning Order about the terrain, don't ignore the briefing. The game is winnable by using the roads 90% of the time. 

this is called bias.  I can tell you as a matter of fact that yes many of the requests from these pages make it into the list for BF.  I don't know the specific door issue you are referring to but I know of at least one where certain building configurations were  recognized as a bug and added to the list.  I don't think it is your place nor mine to tell a user what is or isn't a bug in BF's eyes or where it fits in the priority list.  Best I can do as a beta tester with access to the ticketing system is to add it.  Which many of us do.

[chuckdyke]

3 hours ago, sburke said:

I don't know the specific door issue you are referring to

I wrote it clearly Knock them all Down FB first mission. Buildings on the left side of the map, BN Road to Nijmegen the bridge been reported and silence is golden. This is not bias but personal experience. I gave up reported bugs, other people are doing a fine job. The games are good but not perfect. Even the US troops in RL couldn't leave a building because the doors were welded shut. Happens in real life too. A bug I go with the definitions wildly accepted, oversights in a code. BN, units even when not split, split up and the culprit is usual a bridge (Counterattack at Son BN) A German squad went over the little footbridge 2 couldn't cross. Had to start the game over again. A bug who knows? Could be my PC or micromanagement. You better learn the definition of bias it is insulting the way you addressed me. Oh sorry I forgot you're a beta tester. I bought CM games for the last 20 years and you could learn a thing or two in customer's relations. Bugs I give BF the benefit of the doubt innocent till proven guilty. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by chuckdyke

[LukeFF]

18 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

You better learn the definition of bias it is insulting the way you addressed me. Oh sorry I forgot you're a beta tester. I bought CM games for the last 20 years and you could learn a thing or two in customer's relations. Bugs I give BF the benefit of the doubt innocent till proven guilty. 

Oh my word, you really don't know what you're talking about here. @sburke has been around here way longer than you have, and I can say with certainty that he is one of the most thorough, diligent testers BF has. If someone here reports a bug and has a valid Way to Repeat it, it goes up on the bug tracker for BF's developers to look at. If they decide it's not or that it's not an urgent enough issue to spend time on - well, then that's just what they've decided. It's no different with any of the other games I've beta tested for over the years.

[chuckdyke]

20 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

I've beta tested for over the years.

Never ever disagree with a beta tester. Jee, I don't waste my time with plotting way points to see or I can hit a target or if I can cross a stream. For the simple reason it is not realistic. Besides, it is completely unreliable, in the game you can't even trust bridges. In real life people look through their sights or they can hit a target or not they don't plot waypoints. In 4-wheel driving I put the car in 4-wheel drive before I cross a stream. Prior to that I step out and check how deep it is. This is exactly what I do in the game and enjoy playing it that way. Wish you luck with your beta testing I still see the same so-called bug than 10 years ago. I just make suggestions how I play the game. I don't rely on waypoints sorry to disappoint you. 

Here is a present for you. The Bug is the unit can't render buddy-aid. Bit distressing to watch a Kamerad or mate bleed out. (Counterattack at Son, BN)

The game doesn't let me to enter the same Hex. 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by chuckdyke

[sburke]

18 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

I wrote it clearly Knock them all Down FB first mission. Buildings on the left side of the map, BN Road to Nijmegen the bridge been reported and silence is golden. This is not bias but personal experience. 

The point of bias wasn't a personal criticism.  Just a statement that experience colors our perception. That a bug isn't fixed doesn't mean it hasn't been looked at nor a fix attempted.  Hell look at the bridge issues that we have.  Just when you think they might have gotten it, womp another vehicle decides to go underwater.  You are being way too sensitive and umm I am not in customer relations.  Thank god eh?    

[Artkin]

22 hours ago, sburke said:

I don't think it is your place nor mine to tell a user what is or isn't a bug in BF's eyes or where it fits in the priority list.

I have absolutely no clue what you're going on about here. Reread what he said and then reply. Lol.

Chill out hound dogs. I would have double quoted if I could have, but I already posted so I cannot.

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Artkin

[chuckdyke]

9 minutes ago, sburke said:

Thank god eh?

That I am not a scenario editor. 20 is the default level I would like to see a default 18 waterlevel. Whenever we paint a river or stream it is automatically lower. That is the cause of in my opinion of the bridge issues. The tiles determine or we can cross something or not and sometimes they border streams at triangles as is the case here. I said 'I think it is not a bug. I never said, 'It is not a bug'. Kind regards. 

[sburke]

27 minutes ago, Artkin said:

I have absolutely no clue what you're going on about here. Reread what he said and then reply. Lol.

Chill out hound dogs. I would have double quoted if I could have, but I already posted so I cannot.

 

I'd suggest reading the full thread if you want a clue.   it's in there.  Though hardly worth the time.  Nikolai had a concern. I offered to post it to BF, case closed.  We can just let this thread go.

[sburke]

29 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

That I am not a scenario editor. 20 is the default level I would like to see a default 18 waterlevel. Whenever we paint a river or stream it is automatically lower. That is the cause of in my opinion of the bridge issues. The tiles determine or we can cross something or not and sometimes they border streams at triangles as is the case here. I said 'I think it is not a bug. I never said, 'It is not a bug'. Kind regards. 

Really?

On 6/13/2021 at 5:32 PM, chuckdyke said:

The stream as somebody illustrated is touched by the triangles of the impassable terrain. Not a bug as such. The cursor system is not perfect. 

 

[Artkin]

13 minutes ago, sburke said:

I'd suggest reading the full thread if you want a clue.   it's in there.  Though hardly worth the time.  Nikolai had a concern. I offered to post it to BF, case closed.  We can just let this thread go.

 I did, three times today, four including the first time I posted. And:

23 hours ago, sburke said:

 I don't think it is your place nor mine to tell a user what is or isn't a bug in BF's eyes or where it fits in the priority list.

This was never insinuated. It's ALWAYS hard to understand Chuck, but this is absurd.

[sburke]

18 minutes ago, Artkin said:

 I did, three times today, four including the first time I posted. And:

This was never insinuated. It's ALWAYS hard to understand Chuck, but this is absurd.

no it wasn't insinuated.  It was outright said.  or do you interpret this differently?  And why do you care? Chuck's a big guy.  He and I can disagree, no big deal.  The stream as somebody illustrated is touched by the triangles of the impassable terrain. Not a bug as such. The cursor system is not perfect. 

[chuckdyke]

On this I based my opinion

On 6/14/2021 at 5:35 AM, MOS:96B2P said:

The No-Go terrain, marsh tiles, are placed at an angle running along the stream.  This allows for the placement of waypoints on passable terrain.  But vehicles must go around to reach the far side of the stream since the marsh tiles are connected in the corner.

 

On 6/13/2021 at 12:08 PM, chuckdyke said:

I wouldn't call it a bug,

These were my words, after I saw the map. In my opinion he would waste his time to report it as a bug. It is just our maps which are 2D are rendered in 3D will have glitches occurring. Plotting waypoints for negotiating obstacles, LOS or LOF gives me an idea, but the TacAI has the last word. Respect to the author of the scenario you can't transform 2D angles of a square into 3D curves. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by chuckdyke

[nikolai]

37 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Plotting waypoints for negotiating obstacles, LOS or LOF gives me an idea, but the TacAI has the last word.

You sound as if there is a tactical AI in the game. TacAI is a misnomer. The existing unit "AI" doesn't take tactical situation into account at all. You cannot ask it to find the safest path, you cannot ask it to make an ambush, you cannot ask it to fire-and-retreat (would be helpful for ambushes, snipers or for fire-and-forget missiles in CMBS). Just compare it, for example, to true tactical AI in Command Ops 2 and you will see what tactical AI should look like. I play CM with an assumption that there is no friendly tactical AI and I have to micromanage units giving them the very basic orders: go this way with normal speed, don't forget to deploy weapon, fire into this wall for 30 seconds. You're trying to impute to TacAI decisions that it was never designed to make.

Edited June 15, 2021 by nikolai

[sburke]

35 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

On this I based my opinion

 

These were my words, after I saw the map. In my opinion he would waste his time to report it as a bug. It is just our maps which are 2D are rendered in 3D will have glitches occurring. Plotting waypoints for negotiating obstacles, LOS or LOF gives me an idea, but the TacAI has the last word. Respect to the author of the scenario you can't transform 2D angles of a square into 3D curves. 

That's fine and I likely agree with you.  His point was the cursor does not provide a correct perspective.  Wouldn't be the first thing to not quite be wysiwyg, but it is my time to waste and it really doesn't take that much time.

[sburke]

1 minute ago, nikolai said:

You sound as if there is a tactical AI in the game. TacAI is a misnomer. The existing unit "AI" doesn't take tactical situation into account at all. You cannot ask it to find the safest path, you cannot ask it to make an ambush, you cannot ask it to fire-and-retreat (would be helpful for ambushes, snipers or for fire-and-forget missiles in CMBS). Just compare it, for example, to true tactical AI in Command Ops 2 and you will see what tactical AI should look like. I play CM with an assumption that there is no friendly tactical AI and I have to micromanage units giving them the very basic orders: go this way with normal speed, don't forget to deploy weapon, fire into this wall for 30 seconds. You're trying to impute to TacAI decisions that it was never designed to make.

uh oh.  Don't open that can of wo... aaargh too late!!!

Steve would probably write a dissertation here on this, I'll settle for Different games, different systems. 

[nikolai]

6 minutes ago, sburke said:

uh oh.  Don't open that can of wo... aaargh too late!!!

Steve would probably write a dissertation here on this, I'll settle for Different games, different systems. 

Right. Different games, different systems. That's fine. I just don't want to pretend there is a tactical AI, while in fact it is absent by design.

[sburke]

50 minutes ago, nikolai said:

Right. Different games, different systems. That's fine. I just don't want to pretend there is a tactical AI, while in fact it is absent by design.

There is, it just has a different function.  CM Tactical AI is pretty sophisticated however it is concentrated in determining how the AI reacts not to make decisions at the scale that Command Ops does.  Watch your pixeltruppen.  They'll do some pretty awesome stuff especially when they decide to ignore your orders because something happened that takes precedence.  If there was no Tac AI in this game you'd find a lot of folks looking elsewhere and BF could churn out games a lot faster.

Probably a better place to start would be defining what you mean by tactical AI because it most certainly exists in CM.  It is not absent by design, it is in fact the heart of the game.  And yes I have Command Ops.  Just not an RTS guy so my interest flagged.