kohlenklau CMFI North Afrika QB map-mod project

[kohlenklau]

BLENDER TIP FOR CM WORK: (for anybody that is listening or cares!) 

@Frenchy56 taught me this one...

Many mdr's are a parent with 1 or more children. Often the children have 1 or more of their own children.

To unlock this, you go up into the upper right corner tree structure area and "mouse click-hold" one of the children and drag it to the left. There is a tiny notice window that says "Drop to clear parent". So drop it and that item becomes independent.

Once each item is its own group, you can modify things easier. Make some groups invisible with the "eye" symbol so things are decluttered and clarified. Box select in wireframe view to grab the back side of objects for scaling, moving, rotating, extruding, copying.

Once done, you can drag children back to the parent as needed. Then select the final hierarchy and export...

Edited August 7, 2021 by kohlenklau

[Lucky_Strike]

18 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

Yes, trench1 [birhakeim].mdr. Hey Lucky, please feel free to open in Blender and change it! Run with the ball and score a TD! This is football, not golf. I always try to cooperate with other forum guys!

So, I spent an evening in the trenches to answer my question about :

19 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

What happens if you make the ditch 2 metres below the surrounding ground level and raise the trench floor up a little to compensate, essentially making a level difference of about 1.5 metresish, or is the trench floor actually the ground?

And the results are interesting ... this is the Blender model ...

... following kohlenklau's lead, I worked on the trench 1.mdr but used textures from Aris's CMRT mod; what I did was raise the trench up by what I guess is a metre or so, then dropped the base of the model back to it's original underground level, the floor of the trench was then adjusted down. The wooden walls are not yet adjusted, easiest way would be to repeat the wall texture/model to avoid texture smearing with consequent need to redo the texture UV maps. Speaking of which, the trench earth parapets are seriously smearing because of all the model distortions, so they need to be redone,  more learning to do to get that right! Anyway, after a few goes, and to see if it fits better into the ground, I decided to try to squeeze in the bottom underground edges plus front and rear faces to create a narrower, pinched in model, think V-shape with the bottom chopped off, I also extending the top of the front and rear faces to create a kind of ledge. Biggest issues initially were getting the trench ground level right, solved by trial and error, and getting the sandbags to reappear, they kept disappearing inside the earth revetments; this was solved by using a trick posted by @Aquila-SmartWargames - in Object mode selecting all the model hierarchy and then Object > Apply > Rotation & Scale before export.

In game the trench is set into a 2 metre deep ditch using the ditchlock method. On level ground this gives the occupants about a 100metre field of view, not great but with the trench on a slight rise in the land things improve massively, in the map I used they can easily command a few hundred metres in front when placed behind a hedge; at ground level from the enemy perspective, nothing is visible at all; the downside is that the terrain is deformed so it's obvious something is there from above before full spotting reveals a trench. The troops still disappear into the ground when wounded or dead, just their feet sticking out, and sometimes, as they move in the trench, their feet disappear as if in mud; but they stand and don't clamber up onto the parapet for a better view, which is what happens if one sticks a normal trench into a two metre deep ditch ...

... our boys have those fields covered ...

... what trench? The enemy's perspective.

Thanks @kohlenklau for showing the way! Sorry for all the greenery in your desert thread.

At the moment I don't have time to do much more on this as doing all the trenches would be quite a big job, so if anyone fancies a crack at it you're welcome to my reworked model which I'll happily upload somewhere for you to grab. Otherwise I may get to it after more bocage and trees and steppe and ...

[Falaise]

My photos are not as pretty as Lucky's,
I haven't changed anything of what @kohlenklau did
I just tested if it improved the defense and if shooting was still possible under all circumstances.
I found that the soldiers were better protected, the parapet stopping the projectiles and the men did not emerge up to the waist, only the top of the shoulders and the head, but I think @Lucky_Strike  made that even better.
Among the disadvantages, the machine guns which as in reality cannot fire from the bottom of the trench.
Where it becomes great is that if you make angles, the trench returns to the original. You just have to place the HMGs in these adapted positions to be able to benefit from them.

here we see a shooter!

and in the dedicated positions the machine guns

Edited August 7, 2021 by Falaise

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Would that Charles could put this in the game...

[Warts 'n' all]

On 8/6/2021 at 2:37 PM, kohlenklau said:

I am researching Bir Hakim 

I went through Bir Hakeim a few times one evening whilst waiting for a young lady to come out of work. And before anyone asks, no, butter wasn't involved.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Warts 'n' all

[kohlenklau]

There are many trench mdr files, maybe 7 or is it 9 I forget. Like walls, it has all the various types of interface, the t, the angled t, the angled end, etc. Each trench mdr must be processed in Blender to get all at the same level

BUT as Falaise said, the MMG or HMG needs to be at a certain (lower) level to fire.

I did a series of NEW experiments for CMRT Warsaw. I alpha layered the sandbags and ALL trench. Interesting results as a dug out trench (Blue 19 with Black 21's) in firm ground with no wood support or sandbags. This fits the Warsaw event. You only see the dirt. OH! It was also placed a foot path in the squares. I will post photos and the test scenario/map.  

 

 

[Lucky_Strike]

4 hours ago, Falaise said:

Where it becomes great is that if you make angles, the trench returns to the original. You just have to place the HMGs in these adapted positions to be able to benefit from them.

That's very interesting, I like the way the terrain steps up to the forward position, kinda looks like a raised weapons pit.

Does the HMG fire from the normal trench but with animation showing it at the bottom of the trench, or does it just not fire from the normal trench at all?

I know when I did some quick tests attacking with a few Germans squads and a PzIV against a few squads of British in the trenches the British won every time, once the PIAT took out the mkIV. They certainly could use their Brens and the Germans were completely oblivious to the trenches until they closed to about 200m in flat open terrain with just long grass for concealment. Trench gave pretty good protection against the HE the panzer lobbed at them, though the occupants did end up rattled.

And your pictures are very nice!

4 hours ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

Would that Charles could put this in the game...

I think they could, but I read somewhere else on the forum that they didn't do it because of the way the terrain is deformed by sinking anything like trenches and foxholes into it - sadly a bit of a give away in terms of spotting at the moment. Although the trenches themselves aren't spotted in advance the ditches are easily seen by the opponent, kinda spotter plane fashion. Probably not an issue if playing the AI, or with a rule set against a human. If they could come up with a way to maintain FOW with invisible trench-sized ditches then it would work, otherwise they need to come up with a very different solution for below ground level defences, and it's sadly not a priority I guess. Also these ditches need to be pre-planned into a map/scenario so they are probably not good for quickbattle maps.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Lucky_Strike

[Lucky_Strike]

2 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

butter wasn't involved

Is this something to do with Marlon Brando?

[Lucky_Strike]

2 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

There are many trench mdr files, maybe 7 or is it 9 I forget. Like walls, it has all the various types of interface, the t, the angled t, the angled end, etc. Each trench mdr must be processed in Blender to get all at the same level

Yes, and no easy way to automate most of the process. 
 

2 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

BUT as Falaise said, the MMG or HMG needs to be at a certain (lower) level to fire.

I'm gonna have to take a look at this so I can visualise what they're up to. I wonder is we could make our own shape with a sort of raised platform area for HMGs. I think each trench is one action square so it may preclude having a specific spot for HMGs and part of a squad, it would probably have to be it's own section of trench

2 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

I did a series of NEW experiments for CMRT Warsaw. I alpha layered the sandbags and ALL trench. Interesting results as a dug out trench (Blue 19 with Black 21's) in firm ground with no wood support or sandbags. This fits the Warsaw event. You only see the dirt. OH! It was also placed a foot path in the squares. I will post photos and the test scenario/map.

An invisible trench, I like. A 2m deep ditch that offers better cover. This is very interesting. I wonder if foxholes could be treated in this manner, a single action square ditch with the added protection of invisible sandbags, gotta look better than the current version, could even add a large crater perhaps to give the impression of a dugout.

Off to play ...

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Lucky_Strike

[Warts 'n' all]

5 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Is this something to do with Marlon Brando?

It's a reference to a Metro station close to where scenes from a certain moving picture show were filmed. And it's not the only station to take it's name from a battle.

[kohlenklau]

I am glad that a few guys are experimenting with changes to the classic CM trench aka the "little kids wading pool"...!

My goal today is to finish a scenario for CMRT Warsaw Uprising Mod that will utilize a modtagged modified trench.

For that scenario, at this point I think I will only need to modify trench1. It runs parallel to map edges. 

 

[Vergeltungswaffe]

13 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

I think they could, but I read somewhere else on the forum that they didn't do it because of the way the terrain is deformed by sinking anything like trenches and foxholes into it - sadly a bit of a give away in terms of spotting at the moment. Although the trenches themselves aren't spotted in advance the ditches are easily seen by the opponent, kinda spotter plane fashion. Probably not an issue if playing the AI, or with a rule set against a human. If they could come up with a way to maintain FOW with invisible trench-sized ditches then it would work, otherwise they need to come up with a very different solution for below ground level defences, and it's sadly not a priority I guess. Also these ditches need to be pre-planned into a map/scenario so they are probably not good for quickbattle maps.

Exactly.

I'm sure that's something for CM3, or maybe Engine 5 if we're lucky.

[Lucky_Strike]

13 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

It's a reference to a Metro station close to where scenes from a certain moving picture show were filmed. And it's not the only station to take it's name from a battle.

Ahh yes, you've been Tangoed ... I live just up the road from a place named after Monty's big desert bash, not a station though.

[Lucky_Strike]

7 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

aka the "little kids wading pool"...!

Now there's an idea for a mod, can we have bouncy castles as well ...

I did take a bash at the foxholes, ditchlocking a single action square 1 or 2m below ground level with invisible foxhole textures. Some work some just look like, urm, ditches. They work quite nicely right up against bocage, look a bit like the sort of dugouts that were cut out of the earth banks seen in period photos. Can work quite well as a ditch across roads, though the road texture has to be removed. Sadly because of the way foxholes are deployed, four per square, the pixeltruppen tend to gravitate to the corners of the ditch so they look like they are all trying to clamber out. What would be ideal would be a narrower ditch that could be angled across an action square, sort of like a sunken footpath-sized model. I wonder if trenches can be shrunken, though probably matters nought since the ditch is what we really need to be shrunk (man, shrunk and shrunken are mighty odd words when said enough times repetitively ...)

7 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

My goal today is to finish a scenario for CMRT Warsaw Uprising Mod that will utilize a modtagged modified trench.

For that scenario, at this point I think I will only need to modify trench1. It runs parallel to map edges. 

This will be very exciting stuff when you get it released! Thanks for all your efforts Kohl & JM!

[Lucky_Strike]

1 hour ago, Lucky_Strike said:

What would be ideal would be a narrower ditch that could be angled across an action square, sort of like a sunken footpath-sized model. I wonder if trenches can be shrunken, though probably matters nought since the ditch is what we really need to be shrunk

Well, a quick Blend later - it's possible to make a slit trench sort of thing, a quick, rough (though somewhat neat, who hired the mini-digger?) effort; sandbags front only with no wooden supports for the revetments (what would health and safety say) ...

... but as always with CM there are caveats. The pixeltroops need a lot more sideways space (this is one squad less PIAT team plus HQ) otherwise they just cluster up onto the parapets; some still clamber out if they are front facing, you'll notice that they are all at a slight angle facing forward, this way they all stay in the trench, though what happens when they're attached is anyones guess; some will bury themselves in the rear wall, this may be because the floor of the trench is partly under that wall so a tweak might stop that behaviour. Generally though it looks OK.

[Warts 'n' all]

36 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

 (what would health and safety say) ....

Something along the lines of "If you want to go back to a time before the passing of the Health and Safety at Work Act be our guest, but don't come running to us if you get seriously injured, you dozy plonker". If they were being polite.

[kohlenklau]

1 hour ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Generally though it looks OK.

It sure does! 

[Lucky_Strike]

1 hour ago, kohlenklau said:

It sure does! 

Did a quick hotseat playthrough using the incomplete map above with a few opposing squads. As soon as the game started the British troops were popping in and out of their trench, like some fairground shooting game. It may have been a LOS issue, but some stayed down and seemed happy taking potshots. The cover the trench provided seemed good, though when the squaddies took cover they did tend to do so floating in space or burying various parts of themselves in the rear wall of the trench. Overall, however, it's no stranger than the behaviour seen with normal trenches and as a visual device it is certainly more pleasing. For now, until I maybe have more time, I think I'll tidy up this one and the wider version then upload them for folks to do what they will with them. 

[Erwin]

Will it work better with smaller teams rather than squad-sized units?

[Lucky_Strike]

49 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Will it work better with smaller teams rather than squad-sized units?

Fewer squaddies per trench section certainly makes it easier to persuade them to stay in the trench, but as soon as the fun starts they are still in and out of the trench. I didn't try it in a flat open area, so they may stay down if their LOS is better, but I think because the trench is a visual gimmick to make us feel better, in what ever shape it comes, the pixeltruppen are always going to behave oddly around it, and it's always going to look more or less odd; that is to say it's a compromise at best and it just depends what compromise one prefer - a nice graphic with exaggerated weird behaviour or slightly less weird behaviour with a, how did Kohl put it? Ah yes, little kids wading pool. I may try tweaking the width to see if it improves their behaviour, but to be honest I think Kohl's original solution is pretty much our best outcome.

[Centurian52]

On 8/7/2021 at 12:29 PM, Lucky_Strike said:

So, I spent an evening in the trenches to answer my question about :

And the results are interesting ... this is the Blender model ...

... following kohlenklau's lead, I worked on the trench 1.mdr but used textures from Aris's CMRT mod; what I did was raise the trench up by what I guess is a metre or so, then dropped the base of the model back to it's original underground level, the floor of the trench was then adjusted down. The wooden walls are not yet adjusted, easiest way would be to repeat the wall texture/model to avoid texture smearing with consequent need to redo the texture UV maps. Speaking of which, the trench earth parapets are seriously smearing because of all the model distortions, so they need to be redone,  more learning to do to get that right! Anyway, after a few goes, and to see if it fits better into the ground, I decided to try to squeeze in the bottom underground edges plus front and rear faces to create a narrower, pinched in model, think V-shape with the bottom chopped off, I also extending the top of the front and rear faces to create a kind of ledge. Biggest issues initially were getting the trench ground level right, solved by trial and error, and getting the sandbags to reappear, they kept disappearing inside the earth revetments; this was solved by using a trick posted by @Aquila-SmartWargames - in Object mode selecting all the model hierarchy and then Object > Apply > Rotation & Scale before export.

In game the trench is set into a 2 metre deep ditch using the ditchlock method. On level ground this gives the occupants about a 100metre field of view, not great but with the trench on a slight rise in the land things improve massively, in the map I used they can easily command a few hundred metres in front when placed behind a hedge; at ground level from the enemy perspective, nothing is visible at all; the downside is that the terrain is deformed so it's obvious something is there from above before full spotting reveals a trench. The troops still disappear into the ground when wounded or dead, just their feet sticking out, and sometimes, as they move in the trench, their feet disappear as if in mud; but they stand and don't clamber up onto the parapet for a better view, which is what happens if one sticks a normal trench into a two metre deep ditch ...

... our boys have those fields covered ...

... what trench? The enemy's perspective.

Thanks @kohlenklau for showing the way! Sorry for all the greenery in your desert thread.

At the moment I don't have time to do much more on this as doing all the trenches would be quite a big job, so if anyone fancies a crack at it you're welcome to my reworked model which I'll happily upload somewhere for you to grab. Otherwise I may get to it after more bocage and trees and steppe and ...

These trenches look like a massive improvement over the default. Any chance we might be getting a download soon?

[Lucky_Strike]

15 minutes ago, Centurian52 said:

These trenches look like a massive improvement over the default. Any chance we might be getting a download soon?

I refer the gentleman to this, please repeat:

This, you can already thanks to Kohl:

And this, particularly my last sentence:

[Falaise]

Before testing the graphic improvements of lucky and its superb very realistic trenches I continued to test that of kole when the behavior of the troops.
alas an insurmountable problem for me arose, the LMG shooters if they stand to watch only shooting lying down or kneeling
result they do not shoot in the trenches !!!
trechs thus lose all interest!

[Centurian52]

1 hour ago, Lucky_Strike said:

 I refer the gentleman to this, please repeat:

This, you can already thanks to Kohl:

And this, particularly my last sentence:

Ok, that's on me for not reading back far enough in the thread. These work really well! If placed in ditches they are almost perfect trenches, and even on their own are a massive improvement over the default trenches. I think all that is really needed for a minimum viable product is to get the other facings in (currently none of the diagonals work). The other issues haven't really bothered me much so far.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Centurian52

[kohlenklau]

2 hours ago, Falaise said:

the LMG shooters if they stand to watch only shooting lying down or kneeling

I don't know what to tell you, there are animations for standing and shooting for LMG soldiers.

I will continue to enjoy tinkering to see what happens. Part of the fun, the game inside the game so to speak.

1 hour ago, Centurian52 said:

I think all that is really needed for a minimum viable product is to get the other facings in (currently none of the diagonals work)

I haven't decided to go and do them all yet. I am still tinkering with trench1.