"Dnieper Rising" Scenario Update

[Canuck21]

Hey Folks, as some of you may have read, there is a problem with kamikaze German pixeltruppen abandoning their cover to duke it out in the open. @RockinHarry sent me his saved file that shows this behaviour (thanks Harry - appreciate that very much). It is definitely not part of the AI programming directly, but there may be a correlation indirectly, and a way I can fix it. It remains to be seen but I'm going to adjust the plans and see if that will help. So anyone playing this scenario and isn't too far into it (or just wants to replay it - there are 4 defensive AI plans in effect - I will fix all 4), maybe hold off on finishing it for now. I'm going to reprogram the AI and see if I can't stop this from happening. It will take a bit of time, but by later this morning (Eastern time) I should have something up for you. I'll post the new version on my site and advise people here as soon as it is up, so keep an eye out here.

Thanks for your patience and for downloading this scenario. Hopefully we can get this fixed quick  .

[Canuck21]

Ok, I've modified the AI and the new file is up. If you have any trouble downloading it, please let me know (I'm new to Dropbox and I think it's ok, but...  ). 

So you now have 5 defensive AI plans with varying levels of frequency. My solution was to divide up all the squads into individual groups and give them each an extra set of orders that painted them onto the one place (mostly - I don't want to give away too much here or it will spoil the scenario for you). Other than (hopefully) the pixeltruppen not running madly into the open where they can get shot more easily, they should better defend the positions they are in. There are some variances built into the AI but none that should cause what @RockinHarry (and perhaps others) have seen (they should be more careful and select their positioning better, is what I'm saying).

Unfortunately, if this is a game issue, my solution is not workable beyond a small battle size. I used up 12 of the 16 groupings in my mod change and that's just not going to cut it for larger scenarios. So each foxhole (for instance) that's occupied has a separate group of soldiers in them. This way I could add orders that have them sitting in that foxhole for as long as possible. If they still leave and run towards the bullets, then we have a bigger problem. Originally I had one group that covered all the foxholes which are not all together, but no orders telling them not to leave that position until a certain time, and certainly not to rush the enemy in this case. So please have another go at this and if we still see it, then I'll have to think of something else. Before then however, I'll have a few more AI questions for the experts on if my ideas are sound or not. 

Ok, the file is up for the taking. Thanks for your patience  .

[mjkerner]

Are they supposed to be basically sitting there defending in place, but they run away toward enemy (the player)? If so, and as mentioned in another thread, giving them no orders should keep them in place until casualties mount and morale fails. Or am I not understanding the situation?

[Canuck21]

No, you got it. They ran forward into the open then went to ground to shoot back, but because they were now in the open, they got creamed. They had zero orders and were simply placed there where I deployed them (within a broad Deployment Zone). Isn't this one of the things that was addressed in the Game Engine 4 update (soldiers running from cover into the open)? If so that would not have been in force with this scenario because that update was installed with F&R, which at the time I made that scenario, wasn't present on my machine. I'm guessing if players don't still have that installed for CMRT, then perhaps they may encounter this as well? I really don't know as it's a game engine thing rather than an AI issue (in this case at least, based on what I've read above).

[Combatintman]

15 minutes ago, Canuck21 said:

No, you got it. They ran forward into the open then went to ground to shoot back, but because they were now in the open, they got creamed. They had zero orders and were simply placed there where I deployed them (within a broad Deployment Zone). Isn't this one of the things that was addressed in the Game Engine 4 update (soldiers running from cover into the open)? If so that would not have been in force with this scenario because that update was installed with F&R, which at the time I made that scenario, wasn't present on my machine. I'm guessing if players don't still have that installed for CMRT, then perhaps they may encounter this as well? I really don't know as it's a game engine thing rather than an AI issue (in this case at least, based on what I've read above).

It is almost certainly a Tac AI thing.  If you've tested it then that generally becomes apparent - from everything I hear that is exactly what is going on here and; therefore, not a reason to jump through hoops trying to fix your AI orders.  By all means check but don't bang your head against a wall if you can't change it.

[Canuck21]

10 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

but don't bang your head against a wall

The wall will wonder where I've gone and why the absence, if I don't ...

[domfluff]

"Running forward from cover" was a crude way of explaining the Engine 4 bugged behaviour.

What it really was, was the pro-active HE avoidance that engine 4 introduced. That's all fine in the open - if mortar rounds start falling, then you want your troops (and especially the AI troops) to get the hell out of there - but the original behaviour could manifest as a single mortar round making an entire trench line run away, in the extreme case.

After this initial bug, there were still some issues - most visibly around bocage. They would displace from the bocage towards the nearest piece of cover, which sometimes was forwards. This has now been resolved about as well as I think it can be (after what was presumably a monumental effort) - they behave much more convincingly now, and tend to shelter in place behind cover when they have it.

What you're describing doesn't sound like that. I've not seen the scenario in question, so I can't suggest anything more directly, but it seemed worthwhile to define what actually was happening with the previous bug.

[Canuck21]

38 minutes ago, domfluff said:

if mortar rounds start falling, then you want your troops (and especially the AI troops) to get the hell out of there - but the original behaviour could manifest as a single mortar round making an entire trench line run away, in the extreme case.

AHHH, now THAT makes sense in this instance! Just before these guys started running, a mortar round (or several) had dropped in their immediate vicinity. And again, remember this is before the Engine 4 update (which has since been installed), and so this might very well be exactly what you are describing.

[domfluff]

Ah, gotcha. There you go. Mortars are an obvious one, but really this was any kind of HE.

[Glubokii Boy]

I had a quick look at this in the editor....Unless i looked at an old version of the scenario you have only given AI orders to ONE AI group (nr 2).  The counter attacking platoon i presume. If its not this platoon that is acting strangely it is indeed a game engine issiue as far as i can see. No other of the AI groups (3, 4 ,10 and 11) have any AI orders asigned to them at all....Not that i can see atleast.

 

 

[Canuck21]

@Glubokii Boy - that sounds like the old version. Did you D/L that this morning before I posted the update above? If so, that sounds right. Now there are 13 Groups (although I think I skipped a group possibly) and they all now have Orders except for one (that would be something like 11 I suspect). If that's not what you're seeing, could you download it again please and let me know if the new one has loads of groups and all have Orders (except for 1)? I want to make sure I got the right version up there. Thanks a bunch  .

[RockinHarry]

Here´s result of original download version of Dnieper Rising. At last the leaving foxholes issue wasn´t that big of an impact for final result. But not to advantage of german AI as well. Most my mortar barrage hit empty space and those german infantry leaving foxholes didn´t receive a direct hit. It was 3-4 infantry units and 1 HMG team. The latter simply moved over to a neighboring HMG foxholes. When I stormed that position, that single foxholes action spot contained 2 HMG teams and the HQ team. Did lots of maneuvering in this little mission, but at last bits of lost patience and tried the russian way. A reckless push on center farmhouses with all remaining force got the german AIP surrender at T31.

https://i.imgur.com/MELE0dY.jpg

Edited May 19, 2021 by RockinHarry

[Canuck21]

Very good. I used the Soviet doctrine from the outset and while I did take the Germans, I sure got a lot of people killed in the process! I did try a bit of a pincer movement from the south and north, but it was only moderately successful. That open ground is deadly! Glad it worked out for you  .