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Visibility? How do I view visible terrain?


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And "Target" works perfectly well for this.

CM already gives the player plenty of unrealistic god's-eye-view advantages lacked by historical commanders. Having to be in position to check spotting is a feature, not a bug.

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A looooot of people play the game high up, camera level 4 or higher. Dropping down occasionally to camera level 1 to look over the should of your unit to see what they see has its advantages,

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1 hour ago, MikeyD said:

camera level 4 or higher

Yes, we bought the game to have fun. Camera position 5-9 simulates maps I use for plotting. The others if it corresponds with the POV a unit has. What other people think about my preferences is none of my business. Inspired by Sir Anthony Hopkins about that one. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Holman said:

CM already gives the player plenty of unrealistic god's-eye-view advantages lacked by historical commanders. Having to be in position to check spotting is a feature, not a bug.

I often see this come up, and it is a completely false argument.

You do not only play as a commander in CM. As a commander, you tell your tank platoon to go to this area, and find a good point where you have a good observation on this area - for example.

In CM, you have to tell each unit exactly where it has to go. So you have to check from which position what is visible, and not the unit itself.

Edited by Bufo
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Also there are many cases in CM where you should be able to see something from a location, but the game won't let you, due to some quirk or engine limitation.

So you need to check visibility a lot to make sure that your perception matches that of the game.

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11 hours ago, Bufo said:

I often see this come up, and it is a completely false argument.

You do not only play as a commander in CM. As a commander, you tell your tank platoon to go to this area, and find a good point where you have a good observation on this area - for example.

In CM, you have to tell each unit exactly where it has to go. So you have to check from which position what is visible, and not the unit itself.

Remember that CM allows you to check LOS not just from a unit's current position but from a movement waypoint.

For example, select a unit and place a waypoint somewhere the unit definitely can't see (such as the other side of the map). If you select that waypoint and give a "target" order, the line of sight tool will reflect visibility from that waypoint, not from the unit's current position. (It take a little getting used to because the line still originates from the unit, but its color clearly indicates calculation from the waypoint.)

 

 

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On 5/12/2021 at 11:51 PM, MikeyD said:

Dropping down occasionally to camera level 1 to look over the should of your unit to see what they see has its advantages

Too bad the camera can't actually go down to shoulder height though.

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5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Too bad the camera can't actually go down to shoulder height though.

Are you sure?  Maybe with the exception of prone I think you can see over a shoulder. 

IIRC there are 5 ground heights in the game in terms of LOS, LOF, and Spotting: Prone, Kneeling, Standing/Small Vehicle, Tall Vehicle, Very Tall Vehicle.

Prone might be difficult to see out to the horizon depending on the terrain. 

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Kneeling.

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Standing.

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Tall vehicle.

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Camera 1 + 1 sequence of mouse wheel Gives you the height of the fighting compartment of an AFV, Camera 1 +2 sequences of the mouse wheel gives you the POV of the commander when the AFV is unbuttoned. This can be checked by using the W-Key and virtually mount the vehicle. Anyway, this is how I do it. To plot the way point you go to the very bottom of your screen, just stop short of your move tool becoming the pointer. 

interior.png

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I see your post has generated the usual "the sky is falling", "no it's not" discussion...

On 5/12/2021 at 5:28 PM, AdamPraha said:

How do I know where you can see from my tank?

You did get the right answers sprinkled in there. So, let me summarize, here are the ways you can see what your units can see:

  1. Get down to their level and look: With the exception of kneeling and prone soldiers you can get to the level of your units. For soldiers just tap '1' to get to the lowest level. For vehicles I recommend taping '2' and then using our mouse wheel. Normally tall vehicles are one wheel click lower than camera level two and the lowest are three clicks down.
  2. Use the target tool: Select the unit and use the target tool to see what they can hit. The UI gives you feedback. No line of sight means you aren't going to see anything there. Reverse slope means you cannot see the ground but if something tall enough appears you have a chance of seeing that. Tanks can also give you the note partial hull down or hull down. Those mean that only occupants of the turret can see that location.
  3. Combine the target tool with additional way points: By setting exploratory way points on the map for your unit you can select the way points and then use the target tool to see what they can see once they get to that location. The one draw back for soldiers is that it will use their current stance for the test. So if you have a squad that is walking (all standing) you might find they unable to see what you wanted if once they get there they go prone or kneel. And visa versa.

Also remember this game tries to model spotting realistically (there is no "insta spot feature"(tm)) so even if you unit can see a particular area you are not guaranteed to spot enemy units at that location. Your men have to notice them. Give them time at a location before you declare there is nothing out there. This is also a good reasons to position them in a location that has some cover and concealment for that observation period because any enemy will be looking for them too.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:
12 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Too bad the camera can't actually go down to shoulder height though.

Are you sure?  Maybe with the exception of prone I think you can see over a shoulder. 

I should have been more precise.. when troops are standing upright (while walking), you can sort of see from their head height. I meant when crouched and prone, since that's nearly always where you will need to shoot from. I would like the lowest view setting to be crouch height.

In any case, saying you can just put the camera down to shoulder height and eyeball the terrain is not true. There are so many quirks about LOS in this game that you need to scan the terrain with the target command to know where your guys can shoot and where they can be shot from. It gets better with experience, but still basically a game of probing with the target tool.

(Just for the record, I do use the lowest view setting all the time, but that's more to get a feel for the dips and bumps of the terrain, which are nearly impossible to see from higher camera elevations. This gives a rough estimate, but to know where you can actually shoot to and from, you still need the target tool)

Edited by Bulletpoint
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Posted (edited)
On 5/12/2021 at 11:51 PM, MikeyD said:

A looooot of people play the game high up, camera level 4 or higher. Dropping down occasionally to camera level 1 to look over the should of your unit to see what they see has its advantages,

This is really a very realistic fight.

I couldn't win a single tank battle.

The enemy will hit you as soon as they see you. I like the view from my own tank. I don't know if I should drive slowly or at high speed and shoot fast.

 

Multiplayer will be much lighter here than singleplayer.

Edited by AdamPraha
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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, AdamPraha said:

I couldn't win a single tank battle.

That's because you're up against a very skilled individual. He is the one who gave you the game. He has the perfect intel he knows where all of your units are and what they are likely to do. He also knows how to win on elite or iron that's why he is now more in game editing. These are only my theories. His weakness he has only one turn the first one. My tips: Armor is nothing without infantry. Your infantry can spot armor from 1km away the armor can't spot 3 men with binoculars who are concealed from a KM. These are called listening patrols. Where armor is they have units, which cover them. If you attack them this is what he wants you to do. It is called a lure and trap situation. To overcome it. You have to maneuver and don't use the obvious approach routes. It is catch 22 once you read his battle plans you will win the battle.  Camera 4 is a lazy way to play this game and not very realistic. The devil is in the detail boots on the ground are the best to find observation positions and firing positions. Separate the two and last and not least don't camp.  

Edited by chuckdyke
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@AdamPraha Beware of spoilers. This is the first German Campaign in RT. Always save games and make screen shots. I know what infantry can spot. I have now an idea of the AI battle plan and knows where he wants to engage. Let infantry do their work, this terrain has plenty of concealment and cover for them. 

spoilersb.png

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, AdamPraha said:

I don't know if I should drive slowly or at high speed and shoot fast.

WW2 era, it's usually best to move AFV's FAST from cover to cover, stop and fire while halted.  For modern (CMSF and CMBS), esp the west, AFV's are good moving QUICK and firing while moving.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, AdamPraha said:

I couldn't win a single tank battle.

The enemy will hit you as soon as they see you.  

The below, in italics, was originally posted by @womble.  I paraphrased it and think it is useful.   

The first step is to not have your armor be the ones actually moving about to find the enemy armor. Infantry eyes are better, there are more of them, and they are stealthier. Once you have a position for the enemy, you can bring your armor to bear.  "Hunt" movement commands can be useful for that last little leg of movement that brings your tank out of being completely hidden into its firing position. Short steps of movement with 10s pauses (spotting is checked every 7s or so...) will give you the best chance of spotting the enemy before he spots you. But all this requires that you know where the enemy is.

Using armor arcs is a double-edged sword. A big "map-covering" 360o circular Armor Target Arc is good for making sure your tank isn't distracted by infantry.  The best way to approach your firing position, if it's possible, is to move in a way that presents your front armor to the enemy when you break cover, which will also mean your gun is pointing at him if you've set a map-blanketing Armor Target Arc. No chance of the target not being in-arc and you have the best chance of surviving return fire.

Second best is the "short pop-out" where your turret is pointed at the target, meaning your engagement time is short enough that you can reverse back into cover before the enemy can rotate to bear. This needs good observation on the target to make sure his gun isn't pointed at where you're going to pop out before you show yourself.

A word of caution.  A tank with an Armor Only Target Arc will generally not fire on an anti-tank gun.  

Also, in its continuing effort to improve the game, Battlefront added  the Hull Down command after the above was posted.  I generally just use Hunt from habit but Hull Down is now an option.  

 

 

Edited by MOS:96B2P
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On 5/14/2021 at 4:27 AM, Holman said:

f you select that waypoint and give a "target" order, the line of sight tool will reflect visibility from that waypoint, not from the unit's current position. (It take a little getting used to because the line still originates from the unit, but its color clearly indicates calculation from the waypoint.)

 

 

Really? It's great if it's so, but the design is definitely misleading. I tried it many times and was left under impression that LOS is always measured from the current position since the line originates from it, not from the waypoint. 

 

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53 minutes ago, dbsapp said:

Really? It's great if it's so, but the design is definitely misleading. I tried it many times and was left under impression that LOS is always measured from the current position since the line originates from it, not from the waypoint. 

 

Try it and see. Place a waypoint (which you can of course delete afterwards) on the other side of a forest or even just a building. The LOS line does appear to originate from the unit, but its colors very clearly indicates sight from the waypoint.

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10 hours ago, Holman said:

Try it and see. Place a waypoint (which you can of course delete afterwards) on the other side of a forest or even just a building. The LOS line does appear to originate from the unit, but its colors very clearly indicates sight from the waypoint.

The other clue is that the distance to the target changes to reflect the position of the waypoint relative to the target rather than the current position of the vehicle even though the line is still drawn from the vehicle.

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The LOS check per waypoint and/or using the Target command for it takes a little getting used to, but it’ll become second nature after a while.

Still, I do agree that the game would be more comfortable to play if there was a little more feedback on LOS.

For example, weather conditions like fog or rain are not visible on the map in terms of graphical effects (haze) limiting the range units can see. Same goes for nighttime.

Having some kind of overlay function where LOS is calculated and presented as shaded areas or something to that effect, would be a great quality of life improvement imo.

Same goes for introducing haze or night time fading.

For the modern titles which have units with thermal vision it would then be awesome to have spotted units light up realistically in that haze when a spotting unit gets selected. :)

Just dreaming here. 

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I find POV sufficient and when there is LOS the enemy unit pops up and if there is LOF you get shot at. This is realism I never seen anybody plotting a 'Way-Point' in real life. But for example, Camera Position 9 could be replaced by a topographic map. 

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