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US armour spotting ability - buttoned or unbuttoned?


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1 minute ago, Raging Al said:

Is it possible, please, for someone to advise on the spotting ability

Testing is the best way to get answers. Go back to the tutorial missions and watch or your armor engages buttoned or unbuttoned. Playing on Hotseat against yourself is also a good way. A game you already played is an idea. Studying the editor and by testing your creations you will know. Infantry unaided can spot armor at 1 km an unbuttoned tank should be able to spot. In RL if you look through an optical device, you're legally blind because of tunnel vision. That's my theory why infantry without devices get excellent results in the field. I make sure my infantry communicates with my armor. Mind your C2 for me it is the Queen of the battlefield. Example of infantry spotting with optical devices. It is WW2 but we deal with the same engine. 

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3 hours ago, Raging Al said:

Is it possible, please, for someone to advise on the spotting ability of the various US tanks in Cold War, and whether they are better deployed buttoned or unbuttoned?

No tanks, US or Soviet, at this time had buttoned up optics for the commander that were any better than good ole’ binoculars, at least during the day.

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C2 is quite important too. For a while now ive dedicated some part of my scenario preparation to establishing and making sure all C2 is green. Say for example I set up the recon platoon on a hill overlooking a town where ive got an infantry company set up. If the battalion commander unit isnt in the field AFAIK the intel isnt passed on from the recon platoon to say the infantry coy commander. What I do is I make sure atleast one member/vehicle of the recon platoon is within voice range of the company commander, so anything the recon spots eventually travels down the member/vehicle beside the coy CO, and then down to the infantry squads...and this sure makes a difference.

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The M901 and M60a3 have thermals.  I don't know who else.  And high moisture conditions should degrade thermals but I don't know if modeled or not.  Also I don't know if the M60a3 or M901 need to be buttoned to take advantage of their thermal capability.

 

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41 minutes ago, FogForever said:

The M901 and M60a3 have thermals.  I don't know who else.  And high moisture conditions should degrade thermals but I don't know if modeled or not.  Also I don't know if the M60a3 or M901 need to be buttoned to take advantage of their thermal capability.

 

M60A3/M1/M901 have a thermal gunners sight so turning the commander out shouldn't matter.

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14 hours ago, Ryujin said:

M60A3/M1/M901 have a thermal gunners sight so turning the commander out shouldn't matter.

The M2 M3 Bradley do as well. 

On 5/5/2021 at 2:33 AM, Raging Al said:

Is it possible, please, for someone to advise on the spotting ability of the various US tanks in Cold War, and whether they are better deployed buttoned or unbuttoned?

So, my answer here is the same as it is for Black Sea. Regardless how good the optics of a given vehicle is, there is still merit to having the TC unbutton occasionally for situational awareness. There are other reasons, like C2 information sharing with nearby infantry and other friendly assets nearby. Its also important to remember that in reality US tankers still operate unbuttoned a lot, until in direct contact or receiving fire. There are a ton of things that are much easier done unbuttoned, like driving and staying in formation with other tanks, etc. 

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Thanks again, fellas.  

 

So, I’ve just played the battle “Tank Training 1980” and found out the hard way 🤪.  Managed a draw on Iron - I had one immobile M60A1 left standing against two degraded T64B’s.  That was tough!  Spotting isn’t great, even in open desert, so definitely recommend unbuttoned.  

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I had performed a test awhile ago confirming that Abrams and M60A3 can spot through kicked up dust in very dry conditions (other tanks can't). On a whim I tried the opposite, spotting on damp ground on a rainy day. To my surprise the Russians started spotting me first and getting the first shots off. So apparently, based on one small test, US thermals are degraded in the rain.

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3 hours ago, Redwolf said:

What about vision to the side and rear?

Turning out will improve the commanders view to the sides and rear, especially as many of these tanks have pretty crap periscopes. I meant it won't effect the thermals as the commander only has an extension of the gunners thermal sight at best and the gunner is already using it. 

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Heck, M60 tank commander didn't even have periscopes! You looked out directly onto the world through armored glass vision blocks. The only other vehicle using vision blocks is the M901 which has two glass blocks embedded in the rear door,

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I real life, would a buttoned-up tank crew turn the turret (within a given arc) to allow the gunner to scan for distant targets with his sight?

Or is this simply not done?

Best regards,
Thomm

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In Steel Beasts, and these guys are current and former tankers, the default is a 90 deg constant scan with 45 deg to each side of the point that the TC sets.  It can be widened and narrowed by order and SOP.  In fact, there are have been arguments from noobs about not having the constant scan.  But the experts all insisted that is an absolute part of maintaining situational awareness.

It should also be noted that more and more tech is being added to tanks to keep the TC buttoned...field phones, RWS, ITIS, etc.

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Thank you for your answer.

Well, that certainly makes a lot of sense to me.

I wonder if this is abstracted in CMx2, or simply does not exist.

For buttoned-up tanks, or commanders without binoculars, it should make quite a difference.

Does not seem to be to hard to do engine-wise, either. Just have a 'Scan' button. Tie it to a target arc, if available ...

Best regards,
Thomm

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On 5/6/2021 at 6:00 PM, Thomm said:

I real life, would a buttoned-up tank crew turn the turret (within a given arc) to allow the gunner to scan for distant targets with his sight?

Yes, when in contact, or expecting contact, the gunner would normally traverse (and scan) at least a 90 deg arc (as mentioned by Thewood1). Since you always try to keep your front toward the enemy, we usually just told the gunner to "scan from fender to fender" (the far outside corners). With the M60 having ammo in the front hull on both sides of the driver, the gunner could look down through the turret basket and get an idea how far he was to the left and right to keep him oriented. With the M1 there is no ammo tubes like the M60 so the gunner usually looked down to see where he was in relation to the driver. 

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7 hours ago, akd said:

Tanks are assumed to be scanning a 90 deg. arc to their turret front.  This is why probability of spotting is highest in this area.

So it is abstracted, without actually turning the turret?

Best regards
Thomm

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2 hours ago, Thomm said:

So it is abstracted, without actually turning the turret?

Best regards
Thomm

I seem to recall that the regular "move" command is as slow as it is because it abstracts away a short halt to fire. So it gives an accuracy bonus when on the move, as if it had stopped momentarily to shoot (which you can't do in CMx2). Likewise, a spotting bonus (as if swiveling the turret, which you can't do in CMx2). But that is from memory, something that might have been said during CMBN release discussions.

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On 5/6/2021 at 3:30 PM, Ryujin said:

Turning out will improve the commanders view to the sides and rear, especially as many of these tanks have pretty crap periscopes. I meant it won't effect the thermals as the commander only has an extension of the gunners thermal sight at best and the gunner is already using it. 

Absolutely, this applies even to the in game versions of the Bradley and Abrams. There were no CITVs in the Cold War era, the commander gets the same view as the gunner via his sight extension.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/6/2021 at 7:00 PM, Thomm said:

I real life, would a buttoned-up tank crew turn the turret (within a given arc) to allow the gunner to scan for distant targets with his sight?

Or is this simply not done?

Best regards,
Thomm

Like everyone else said, you better be.   "If you are not scanning your sector, you are wrong."  If you are not in direct contact, the loader should be up and looking around as well, with the binoculars if the TC is not using them. 

Edited by White2Golf
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On 5/6/2021 at 12:14 PM, MikeyD said:

I had performed a test awhile ago confirming that Abrams and M60A3 can spot through kicked up dust in very dry conditions (other tanks can't). On a whim I tried the opposite, spotting on damp ground on a rainy day. To my surprise the Russians started spotting me first and getting the first shots off. So apparently, based on one small test, US thermals are degraded in the rain.

That is weird, given that my experience is they worked better in the cold or when raining.  Unless maybe the bad guys had not moved or run the engine in some time.  

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