Panther G vs. IS-2

[Chibot Mk IX]

meanwhile, the tough IS-2's other two comrades are not so lucky

One knocked out by one 88mm through gun mantle 

 

 

The other one stopped 88mm by it's upper hull and side, but two 88mm penetrated low hull plate

 

[Ts4EVER]

FWIW I just played a quick battle to try some stuff out and my StuG knocked out an IS2 early.

[chuckdyke]

8 hours ago, LukeFF said:

That is 100% false. Please don't share misinformation about the game, because it just ends up confusing people.

Morale doesn't play a role? What I write here are my experiences with the game. I checked he used his AP shells not HE from his screenshots. I was wrong there. AP from an 88mm should penetrate or is some generic stuff here we don't know about? Nervous and lower, units will hesitate to follow orders. In a recent game all the opposing forces were nervous or lower, the AI surrendered. What I make out the Units didn't follow the AI's battle plans. I think the TacAI won't function according to the player's intention with a morale state of nervous or lower. The morale state of cautious could be a warning. I treat it as such. 

• OK
• Cautious
• Nervous
• Rattled
• Shaken
• Panic
• Broken
• Surrender
• Rout

Edited May 2, 2021 by chuckdyke

[DesertFox]

Set-up a test in the editor. 1k and 2k distance with 20 IS2s vs. 20 PzV. In both cases the IS2s will get massacred. Looks about right.

[Bulletpoint]

11 hours ago, DesertFox said:

Set-up a test in the editor. 1k and 2k distance with 20 IS2s vs. 20 PzV. In both cases the IS2s will get massacred. Looks about right.

Try 100m.

[Erwin]

24 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Try 100m.

At 100m probably a mere 37mm ATG or Stuart could penetrate a PzV esp the side.  The tactic for the Germans is always fight at long range re superior optics.

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

At 100m probably a mere 37mm ATG or Stuart could penetrate a PzV esp the side.  The tactic for the Germans is always fight at long range re superior optics.

At 100m, the Panther is invulnerable to many guns, since they will all hit the front of the hull every time. The same goes for the IS-2.

At long range, these tanks become vulnerable, because there is a chance the shot will hit the turret.

[Erwin]

Ah, you are saying it's a bug that the turret is never hit at short range?

[akd]

It's not a bug, it's just probability.  The gunner aims center of visible mass of the target and at very short range dispersion is small.

Edited May 2, 2021 by akd

[LukeFF]

On 5/1/2021 at 6:26 PM, chuckdyke said:

Morale doesn't play a role?

No, it plays zero role in ammo selection. Morale and its effects on troops have been discussed at length repeatedly since CM2 was first released, and ammo selection is not a part of that. 

So, again, please stop spreading misleading information.

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

So, again, please stop spreading misleading information.

I didn't talk about ammo selection in this instance. Morale influences the willingness to act. I think it is misleading to let people ignorant of the importance of morale in this game. Nervous means exactly the inability to hit a target, as a sporting shooter I have some experience with it. If this is the case in CM2 they have it spot on, I don't let units on morale which on nervous to act as if their morale is ok. But if it makes you happy, I will stop sharing my experiences on this forum. I will leave it up to you testers to share your expertise. Kind regards it is not my intention to share misleading information even though I can share it with my screenshots. 

[Erwin]

15 hours ago, akd said:

It's not a bug, it's just probability.  The gunner aims center of visible mass of the target and at very short range dispersion is small.

Ok, but at short ranges like 100m one would think the gunner could aim very easily at a specific part of the tank (ie: at a part that could be damaged or result in a kill).  Maybe not a "bug" but an AI behavior that is "odd and/or weird".

[DesertFox]

23 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Try 100m.

No need to. At aprox. 500metres and less the balance shifts and the Panzer Vs get massacred. Easy to test in the editor.

[Bulletpoint]

32 minutes ago, DesertFox said:

No need to. At aprox. 500metres and less the balance shifts and the Panzer Vs get massacred. Easy to test in the editor.

Yes, that is what I expected. Just suggested 100m because I wanted to make sure all shots would hit the front hull.

[JoMac]

Now, I know BF says that there's 'Aim at Center Mass', but shouldn't Short range shots have a higher percentage of hits to top of Upper Hull and Turret (rounds travel slightly upward), and Long range shots have a higher percentage of hits to bottom-half of upper Hull and Lower Hull (rounds falling slightly downward) ? 

Or, maybe its the way CM's Algorithm works, and why we see it the other way around. 

I remember one of my miniature rules had short range 75% of time turret hits, and long range 75% of time hull hits. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by JoMac

[chuckdyke]

Panther vs Four T34/85 range 245 mtr. The 85 mm is struggling against the glacis which is 140mm if you consider the slope of the glacis. That makes the JS2 the only tank capable taking on the Panther or the SU 100 and ISU122. I checked the performance of the 85mm gun and Battle Front got it spot on. The penetration took place at the bottom of the glacis. 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by chuckdyke

[SovietOnion]

Playing the Seelow Heights scenario and my Panthers routinely get picked apart without doing any significant damage to the IS-2 horde, but that just fits the period I suppose.

[chuckdyke]

12 minutes ago, SovietOnion said:

Playing the Seelow Heights scenario and my Panthers routinely get picked apart without doing any significant damage to the IS-2 horde, but that just fits the period I suppose.

Neither tank can penetrate the other, Panthers are in hull down. The larger 122mm does the damage with the weight of shot. I play the Russian side. As German you should avoid attrition because it is a numbers game. The Russians won't run out of men, they can however run out of time. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by chuckdyke

[SovietOnion]

Just now, chuckdyke said:

Neither tank can penetrate the other, Panthers are in hull down. The larger 122mm does the damage with the weight of shot. I play the Russian side. As German you should avoid attrition because it is a numbers game. 

Even when I have everything holding fire to close the range the IS-2s just hang back, eventually get a spot and start killing big cats. I've only played the first 10-15 minutes twice now, so I'm not sure if there's another option, as the open fields look to make maneuver difficult. Tips are welcome.

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, SovietOnion said:

Even when I have everything holding fire to close the range the IS-2s just hang back, eventually get a spot and start killing big cats. I've only played the first 10-15 minutes twice now, so I'm not sure if there's another option, as the open fields look to make maneuver difficult. Tips are welcome.

Make the objectives your killing ground, it is called the lure and trap strategy. I play Russian and found the German armor. It means I get the first shot in they are into battle with the Panther's contact icons. To match the Panther's rate of fire I engage each Panther with 3 IS2's. The Panther can fire 6 shells/minute an IS2 just two. If I would play German that's what I would do. If I lose tanks make sure it is on the road, the terrain is muddy and one out of three tanks may get bogged down. Make time your alley. The Russian AI probably targets their objectives with artillery make sure you don't have troops there. Make them your ambush objectives. 

[SovietOnion]

Not trying to sound terse, as I appreciate your information regarding the C2 mechanics, but this reply doesn't really tell me much. IIRC I could not even change the deployment of my forces at start, although I could be wrong. I can't really see the road because there is a forested area right about where the AI typically parks. At that range I can sometimes spot, although smoke obscures my tigers. I can sit and wait for a better range, or fire and bounce shells. IS-2s sit back with relative impunity and OHK most of my panzers. Where do I move to? I'm in the best position I can see, with hull-down protection. Moving just makes me easier to see and would reduce my cover. Try playing it from the German side. The AI just advance up the road, blob up and then slowly start striking out, and they universally get the first shots off. I can't really advance infantry forward due to the rocket bombardment, either. 

[chuckdyke]

The C2 mechanics if you understand them they will enable you to win most engagements. The Russian approach is Reichstrasse1. Infront of their first objective is a bridge(choking point) , if you succeed in brewing 2 or 3 tanks up there the Russian will certainly run out of time to complete their mission. On my right side and on your left side is what looks like a farm complex. That is a perfect spot to get flanking shots on the Russian armour if they succeed to take the first objective. Please don't reveal any more German intel for me it is going well, and I want to find it out myself. If I were playing for German, I would seriously consider abandoning two tanks on the bridge. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by chuckdyke