Panther G vs. IS-2

[SDG]

I mean..

Just encountered the IS-2s in the campaign and I am genuinly surprised how useless the Panther G-s are against them.

Lined up 4 Panthers along the road (engagement distance at around 350m-s), and waited for the IS-s to drive in front of my tanks one by one. Big mistake. The first tank rolled in (buttoned up), the 4 panthers cannot see it (of course they cant, visual impairment is a common illness among the rank of the Waffen SS), the IS started to engage some infantry, finally one of my tanks spots it, takes a shot but bounces, then gets a partial pen, then all the other IS-s start to roll in and OHK 3 of my Panthers and I finally decide the retreat the last one..

 

OK, big gun, panther gets one-shotted 100% of the time, everytime. This was to be expected.

What wasnt expected is that IS-2s can bounce shots left and right within 350 (!!!) meters and even if they get penetrated, it takes 2-4 (!!!) shots to actually destroy them.
 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by SDG

[Ultradave]

IS-2s are brutes and Panthers don't spot well buttoned up. That's a tough combination.

[chuckdyke]

20 minutes ago, SDG said:

Just encountered the IS-2s in the campaign and I am genuinly surprised how useless the Panther G-s are against them.

Front to front engagements are to be avoided at all cost. Even King Tigers encountering T34/76. If you do it you go for attrition not for maneuver. The purpose of thick armor is that the crew survives an engagement. Gog Magog is the mission which makes this clear. you can blast away at the Soviet tanks and a lot will brew up. All their shells bounce off. Later you face ISII, now you must fight without radio and optics. Use the game of chess as an analogy by exchanging chessmen you may win a game, by checkmate the King you will win the game by maneuver. CM is the same, maneuver to the objective and you win. Maneuvering is to use your infantry, infantry spots armor, armor doesn't spot infantry. Now use your C2 structure so that your Panthers get the contact icon of the infantry. Now they get the first shot in preferably from the side or the rear. Use infantry first! Spotted by the infantry, contact icon will be transferred to my armor upon contact the odds favor the armor which has the contact icon. You will see the SS will now have 20/20 vision. 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by chuckdyke

[SDG]

Oh wait, they can bounce 88 flak guns from 68 meters!

Must have been a coincidence, right?

Nope.

Maybe third time the charm?

Nope!

[SDG]

12 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Front to front engagements are to be avoided at all cost. Even King Tigers encountering T34/76. If you do it you go for attrition not for maneuver. The purpose of thick armor is that the crew survives an engagement. Gog Magog is the mission which makes this clear. you can blast away at the Soviet tanks and a lot will brew up. All their shells bounce off. Later you face ISII, now you must fight without radio and optics. Use the game of chess as an analogy by exchanging chessmen you may win a game, by checkmate the King you will win the game by maneuver. CM is the same, maneuver to the objective and you win. Maneuvering is to use your infantry, infantry spots armor, armor doesn't spot infantry. Now use your C2 structure so that your Panthers get the contact icon of the infantry. Now they get the first shot in preferably from the side or the rear. Use infantry first! Spotted by the infantry, contact icon will be transferred to my armor upon contact the odds favor the armor which has the contact icon. You will see the SS will now have 20/20 vision. 

 

 

This is seriously some good advice, thanks for that. I sometimes do neglect to wait for the information to go through the chain of command and reach my tanks.

Spotting apart, is this realistic that the long 75 mil of the Panther should struggle against an IS-2 even at close distance (<350 m)?

(the flak 88 bouncing 3 times from 68 m is also ridiculous..)

[Redwolf]

5 minutes ago, SDG said:

This is seriously some good advice, thanks for that. I sometimes do neglect to wait for the information to go through the chain of command and reach my tanks.

Spotting apart, is this realistic that the long 75 mil of the Panther should struggle against an IS-2 even at close distance (<350 m)?

(the flak 88 bouncing 3 times from 68 m is also ridiculous..)

Depends on the angle. If a lateral (positional) angle is added to the vertical armor angle and you hit the front then both these guns are at the edge of what they can do about an IS-2. The 88mm is worse here.

[chuckdyke]

The Soviets and the Germans were leapfrogging in tank design. Rule of thumb knock out the enemy at 1500mtr and stop their shells at a 1000mtrs. Panther was designed to take on the T34, SU100 ideally and IS 2 can take on the German cats at 1500mtr. Below the 1000mtrs it doesn't make much difference. One of the reasons the US stuck with the 76mm Sherman. Five of them can take on any German Cat in FB from the sides. You need three IS 2 for each German cat, this is because of firing rate and the limited ammo storage. Warfare is not dueling; you must try to make it as honest and as fair as a bullfight in Spain. Don't stand in front and take on the horns, apply a ruse and go for the vitals with surgical precision. Happy gaming.  A ruse in the game is usual your objective it is 'Lure and Trap'. Control your objective from your key terrain before you occupy. I lost games but I never ran out of units. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by chuckdyke
Spelling

[chuckdyke]

27 minutes ago, SDG said:

Oh wait, they can bounce 88 flak guns from 68 meters!

Must have been a coincidence, right?

Nope.

Maybe third time the charm?

Nope!

Your crew is nervous and they are almost out of shells. Because they are nervous they may use their HE instead of AP. 

[ng cavscout]

Some very good advice here, thanks @chuckdyke!

It really helps me understand how the C2 system works 

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, ng cavscout said:

It really helps me understand how the C2 system works 

Especially with the Soviets they have only a few radios. But in RT the tank riders are the bridge between normal infantry and armor. A major improvement by 1944 all Soviet tanks have radio. You need them to have CC in place, T34/85 and IS2's have more uses than just shooting at other tanks. 

[Bulletpoint]

 

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

Your crew is nervous and they are almost out of shells. Because they are nervous they may use their HE instead of AP. 

If you're guessing at how the game works, please say "I guess" or "I think". I've never seen anything to indicate morale states affect ammo selection.

Secondly, the screenshots clearly show AP was fired all three times- at least the AP ammo count goes down from 14 to 13 to 12.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Bulletpoint

[Bulletpoint]

2 hours ago, SDG said:

Spotting apart, is this realistic that the long 75 mil of the Panther should struggle against an IS-2 even at close distance (<350 m)?

Yes. The Panther gun should penetrate the turret at up to 2000m, but will bounce against the hull at any range.

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/pencalc/

[slysniper]

Well, just for the fun of it, I wanted to see how bad his luck was.

because I know IS-2's are tough, but not that tough.

So I set up a test, 5 IS-2's against 5 panthers and 5 Flak 88's at 670 meters (so 300 meters farther than his engagement.)

 

within the first minute.  4  IS-2's were destroyed. Three to the mighty 88's and one to a panther.

So they are more than destroyable from the front, as long as you have the firepower.

 

What he learned was the 75's are not enough gun to do the job correctly

and I think the 88 had some bad luck. That's all

[Bulletpoint]

3 minutes ago, slysniper said:

So I set up a test, 5 IS-2's against 5 panthers and 5 Flak 88's at 670 meters (so 300 meters farther than his engagement.)

All of them destroyed through the turret I presume?

At long range, there's more chance to hit the turret. At short range, all shots will hit the strong front hull.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Bulletpoint

[Vanir Ausf B]

Yeah, it's all about hitting the turret. Or getting a side shot. Even the King Tiger can't penetrate the front hull.

 

 

 

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Also, keep in mind that the Panther's KwK 42 75mm L/70 has a little better penetration that the FlaK 36 88mm L/56.

[Redwolf]

What timeframe is the IS-2 available in? Can't find it in the unit selection on a few months I tried.

[Vanir Ausf B]

13 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

What timeframe is the IS-2 available in?

All of them, IIRC. But only under Guards.

[Redwolf]

36 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

All of them, IIRC. But only under Guards.

Ah. Thanks.

I just set up a 10 vs 10 shootout at 350m and late Panthers and late IS-2s pick each other off very evenly. The Panthers fire more often but also bounce off the upper hull quite a bit. Seems realistic.

[slysniper]

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

All of them destroyed through the turret I presume?

At long range, there's more chance to hit the turret. At short range, all shots will hit the strong front hull.

Well, there is no question as to that being part of the problem here.

Since at close ranges, the tanks are going to hit center mass and that is a hull hit, thus part of his problem.

its a weakness in the game, its a weakness that can be resolved.

Maybe when you get that CMX3 engine design you will be able to select where to target.

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Your crew is nervous and they are almost out of shells. Because they are nervous they may use their HE instead of AP. 

That is 100% false. Please don't share misinformation about the game, because it just ends up confusing people.

[Vet 0369]

I’m playing a scenario (single player, elite) where I have an initial force of three or four IS-2s. It one engagement when an IS-2 was hull down, an 88 AA/AT gun bounced four rounds off the turret at about 400-600m. The fifth hit in the lower-left corner of the gun mantle, and penetrated through the space between the gun mantle and the turret, and appears to have deflected down into the crew compartment. It killed my commander and gunner, but didn’t further affect the condition of the tank. Bad luck there.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Vet 0369

[SDG]

Must have been bad luck then.

The IS-2s decimated my Panthers in an open engagement, with the Panthers pinging off left and right from these beasts. I hate restarting missions but my tanks being  useless in frontal engagements caught me completely off guard, as I was somewhat accustomed to the fact that as the Germans, if I win the spotting lottery, the enemy armor is good as dead.

Not this time though. Learned my lesson.

(Btw. the Broken Shield campaign is amazing! I highly recommend it to everyone.)

Edited May 1, 2021 by SDG

[Vet 0369]

2 minutes ago, SDG said:

Must have been bad luck then.

The IS-2s decimated my Panthers in an open engagement, with the Panthers pinging off left and right from these beasts. I hate restarting missions but my tanks being  useless in frontal engagements caught me completely off guard, as I was somewhat accustomed to the fact that as the Germans, if I win the spotting lottery, the enemy armor is good as dead.

Not this time though. Learned my lesson.

(Btw. the Broken Shield campaign is amazing! I highly recommend it to everyone.)

Well, I don’t know what the sighting system was on the Flak 88, but I have to assume that the sights are good enough at 400-600m, and the trajectory flat enough that they can target the weakest area possible. It actually took me a few minutes to spot where the round hit. It is usually useful to analyze hits and KOs in a new release. I’ll see if I can get a screen shot and post it here.

[Chibot Mk IX]

3 hours ago, slysniper said:

Well, just for the fun of it, I wanted to see how bad his luck was.

because I know IS-2's are tough, but not that tough.

the bad luck could be caused by impact angle

Just look at how many 88mm AP rounds failed to penetrate the IS-2's side armor.

 

The amazing strong defense is caused by the posture of IS-2 . It makes the German AP ammunition impact at a 30 degree.