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So you just got your hands on CMCW...now what? Designers Q&A thread.


The_Capt
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Very much enjoying Cold War -- great job! One comment so far for designers: for the scenario "Fleeing Altdorf," the briefing text needs some slight clean-up. In addition, I think it should also note that the US player needs to eliminate Soviets, not just get friendly units off the map (*if* I understand the scoring correctly). The scenario text (and title) implies escape is the main objective, and even though I got most of my force away, it counted as a loss because I didn't cause many enemy casualties. I still had fun, but I was very surprised by the outcome! 

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7 hours ago, Suchy said:

I tried converting the map from CMCW without any changes with hexedit but it failed. I think you need to remove all Flavor objects and some buildings.

It's probably the tree set... Tree 6 is different in CMFB/CMCW compared with CMRT/CMBS.

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Who do I have to thank for splitting the Soviet Motor rifle squads correctly in Cold War? (The four/three split with all the weapons in the four section, rather than the LMG and RPG in different fire teams).

That's going to make a ton of difference at the low end, and means the AI can manage them doctrinally.

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5 minutes ago, Sequoia said:

Was adding ICM already at the top of Battlefront's to do list or pushed to the top by Bil and the Captain for this family?

A little of both.  We were all looking for special features really indicative of the period (my personal favourite is the MGB).  This led to a LOT of research and pleading.  I honestly thought we had little chance then Charles kind of sprung it out of a hat and viola, “CM in violation of international conventions(tm)” was born.  We tinkered with them, they are nice and deadly but not overwhelming now.  When testing we started to see results pretty close to real world studies (at least those we could find).  
 

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During research I stumbled on a document that gave some indication of why the US was so willing to give up cluster munition by treaty convention. Apparently they weren't as effective as hoped. Here's a paragraph from a larger document (now lost).

Quote

Based on the placing, size and distribution of such components, it may be stated that an armoured vehicle needs of the order of 10 hits with a DPICM in order to inflict a kill. For vehicles not containing large amounts of ammunition, the number will be even higher. Against modern tanks and modern howitzers, with adequate roof protection, the number may be still higher. 36 FFI-rapport/2007/02345 This view can be supported by a report based on the experience of the Russian army in Chechnya in 1994[11]. This report presents the vulnerability of armoured vehicles. However, it can also be seen as an indication on how invulnerable such vehicles are, as three to six shots by shoulder fired RPGs were needed to inflict a lethal damage to the vehicles. The warheads of RPGs are at least three times better in terms of penetration capacity than a typical DPICM bomblet. In order to achieve 10 hits, an armoured vehicle has to be inside the footprint of an M483A1 155 mm DPICM11 around 200 times, which clearly shows the futility of defeating large armour formation with this kind of munition unless when there are a high number of targets within the footprint area. Other kinds of DPICM, containing a smaller number of bomblets are even less effective.

That doc caused an uproar among the beta team, they frankly didn't believe it (and still don't, i expect). Here's a quick graphic showing the concept behind needing multiple hits to achieve a kill.

 

hit pattern.jpg

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Major Victory as Red in 'Between Two Fahrbahns'. In the end, I had a mere three AFVs in the occupy area. And they got there literally in the last minute. Scenario balance does not get any better than that! My last tank, which killed the last M60, was guided by a recon team sneaking up to the bushline next to the street. This last tank of mine was, in turn, destroyed by enemy infantry shortly afterwards. The brave recon team was killed by an AP artillery strike (how mean!!!). Nail-biting action till the end! Good stuff!

Best regards,
Thomm

Edited by Thomm
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3 hours ago, MikeyD said:

During research I stumbled on a document that gave some indication of why the US was so willing to give up cluster munition by treaty convention. Apparently they weren't as effective as hoped. Here's a paragraph from a larger document (now lost).

That doc caused an uproar among the beta team, they frankly didn't believe it (and still don't, i expect). Here's a quick graphic showing the concept behind needing multiple hits to achieve a kill.

 

hit pattern.jpg

Thats interesting. But it is one thing to completely destroy vehicle, and another to render it ineffective (make it immobile, blind or damage weapon).

Anyway, US army adopted much more effective tactics and technology in favor of using high precision weapons. 

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21 hours ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

I assume that it will be possible to import the CW maps into BS for fighting over the same ground in a modern setting?

Well the other way around certainly works. CMBS -> CMCW.  But at least for Quick Battle maps there is little point. Pretty much all CMBS QB maps seem to already be present in CMCW, sometimes with a slightly different name.

CMFB -> CMCW also goes, but the barns need to be re-placed, because they look funky. Maybe more...

This requires the tiny map hexedit, as you know of course.

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This will probably come off as a little odd but -

I was really hoping to play around with the F&R maps on CMCW. Instead, the module is bricked in CMCW. I converted the F&R maps to CMBS and every scenario except the Berlin scenario will work... I just replace the troops and play the maps as QBs...

Can we get this module unbricked? I've mentioned this before - I want to play the maps I bought in different titles. The F&R maps are leaps and bounds more interesting. And they're quite fitting imo.

I imagine europe will look pretty similar if ww3 broke out.

 

BTW, this game is SO SMOOTH. Damn. I wasn't able to load huge maps (My gpu broke recently), but I'm able to do it in CMCW. I knew the game felt way smoother when I first opened it.

Edited by Artkin
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1 hour ago, Kevin2k said:

 Pretty much all CMBS QB maps seem to already be present in CMCW, sometimes with a slightly different name.

I noticed this too. It was pretty disappointing. Give us F&R compatability @Battlefront.com pleaseeeeeee, my god. I still refuse to play Operation Linnett because it's BOUND to CMBN. The MG expansion isn't even restricted. Why is the F&R expansion?

F&R Works in CMBS but not CMCW.

Edited by Artkin
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I would definitely think twice about buying another module then... What a waste of two years. How much fun am I going to have in CMRT before it gets stale? How much fun am I going to have in CMCW before it gets stale?

It makes absolutely no sense to have Ukrainian maps in region "Germany". So much for sticking to historical accuracy.

Give us F&R maps in CMCW.

How much do I have to pay for this feature? Legit. I bought those maps, I want to use them. Why are they locked?

Edited by Artkin
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9 hours ago, Artkin said:

 Why are they locked?

I guess Charles never intended to make the maps compatible between games.

If this is the case, he would have to program an import filter which takes a map from game A and converts into the internal format required by current game B.

Which of course would be nice.

But you have to understand how little a single programmer can achieve!

Certainly it would be doable. I guess any volunteer could write a converter if he had access to the file format. But for this task, you would need documentation. Who would have to do the documentation? Charles! Does Charles have extra time for this? Guess not.

So I guess the dice has been thrown once the original design did not take compatibility into account. Which does not seem to be the case.

That the F&R QB maps work in CMBS is the real surprise in this context.

You have to see CM from this perspective:
Given how much output a lone programmer can produce, it is a wonder that CMx2 exists at all!

Best regards
Thomm

 

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So any thoughts from smart folks here about US 50 cal vs BMPs?  Is there a range where I start to have a chance of penetration?  Just started my first fight (They Own the Night) and realized the 1980s 50 cal ammo seems less destructive than in Black Sea (or is that my imagination?). 

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1 hour ago, weapon2010 said:

you should consider therapy my friend, enjoy what you have! there is so much content between the 2 new games 

Consider therapy?

How can I play F&R maps fine in CMBS but not in CMCW? Did you even read my posts first before replying?

3 hours ago, Thomm said:

I guess Charles never intended to make the maps compatible between games.

If this is the case, he would have to program an import filter which takes a map from game A and converts into the internal format required by current game B.

Which of course would be nice.

But you have to understand how little a single programmer can achieve!

Certainly it would be doable. I guess any volunteer could write a converter if he had access to the file format. But for this task, you would need documentation. Who would have to do the documentation? Charles! Does Charles have extra time for this? Guess not.

So I guess the dice has been thrown once the original design did not take compatibility into account. Which does not seem to be the case.

That the F&R QB maps work in CMBS is the real surprise in this context.

You have to see CM from this perspective:
Given how much output a lone programmer can produce, it is a wonder that CMx2 exists at all!

Best regards
Thomm

 

I agree. But the only thing that happened was they slapped a lock on the files. Just like BP1 for CMBN- something which I will probably never touch again in my life unless upgrade 5 doubles the performance...

Everyone, as stated, uses Hexed.it... It converts all the F&R maps fine. The ONLY THING that needs to be replaced are BUILDINGS! Again! Same issue as the Nijmegan map (Which I replaced every single building on... and then it WORKED IN EVERY CMx2 GAME).

I'm not asking for a converter. We have one already.

Edited by Artkin
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16 minutes ago, danfrodo said:

So any thoughts from smart folks here about US 50 cal vs BMPs?  Is there a range where I start to have a chance of penetration?  Just started my first fight (They Own the Night) and realized the 1980s 50 cal ammo seems less destructive than in Black Sea (or is that my imagination?). 

The ammunition probably changed. I think today we use .50 AP-I which has reasonable penetration on anything light. I'd say anything BMP is dead/disabled within 5-600m tops. I wouldn't hit anything but the sides at those distances.

Also the budget has become substantially larger, probably allocating for those more expensive rounds.

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2 minutes ago, SovietOnion said:

Artkin, respectfully, this is a lot of vinegar when honey might be more profitable. 

I own EVERYTHING CM except CM:A and previously...

Nobody appreciates CM more than I. I am thrilled to have F&R and CW out. But locking my files is a slap in the face.

Edited by Artkin
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