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Mit Karacho!


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4 minutes ago, Ultradave said:

I'm guessing it will probably work. I had started testing the latest version, but we all ran out of time before release. And it's a long one. I was about 20-30 minutes in I think. No crashes with several saves. Seemed like it was working fine.

If it's still in the uploads folder, now that the last 2 weeks flurry has died down, I can go back and play with it some more, if you like @Combatintman  If not if you want to pm me a copy, I'll give it a go.

It would be good to get it released to the Scenario Depot at least. It's in the category of "You want tanks? I've got tanks for ya'  "

Dave

No you're good mate - I'll get around to it when all of the dust settles.

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I really enjoyed this scenario, but I am curious about the scoring. I exited almost all of Stransky's force ( minus one halftrack and 4-5 men), destroyed 18 Soviet tanks and 200 men and still suffered a tactical defeat. What is the secret? 

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3 hours ago, Frederico said:

I really enjoyed this scenario, but I am curious about the scoring. I exited almost all of Stransky's force ( minus one halftrack and 4-5 men), destroyed 18 Soviet tanks and 200 men and still suffered a tactical defeat. What is the secret? 

Most likely not holding the Bridgehead cost you. Just speculation thought, currently playing that scenario. Well done George 

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7 hours ago, Frederico said:

I really enjoyed this scenario, but I am curious about the scoring. I exited almost all of Stransky's force ( minus one halftrack and 4-5 men), destroyed 18 Soviet tanks and 200 men and still suffered a tactical defeat. What is the secret? 

Excellent - enjoyment is key and glad you did :) 

re the result. 
does depend 
on casualties you suffered in the attacking force as well.
 

You’d lose points for not holding the bridgehead but getting Stransky and his guys out of Dodge should net you enough points. I’d have thought :) but not if you lose a lot of the rescue force.

This is all about force conservation for the Germans. Just can’t afford to lose tanks and SPW in this. 

Cheers for the feedback if you have the final save file and don’t mind sharing please I could double check the scoring. 
 

Cheery!

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4 hours ago, zmoney said:

Most likely not holding the Bridgehead cost you. Just speculation thought, currently playing that scenario. Well done George 

Cheers ta!

In my testing the points scoring successfully doing either at minimum cost to both forces should secure a win. Good luck :)

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Played again and achieved tactical victory by both holding objective AND exiting Stranky's force. It is a great scenario ( as are all of your scenarios) but you really have to read the briefing with care and pull out the calculator!

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23 hours ago, Frederico said:

Played again and achieved tactical victory by both holding objective AND exiting Stranky's force. It is a great scenario ( as are all of your scenarios) but you really have to read the briefing with care and pull out the calculator!

He! He! Thank you :) I was aiming to tactical dilemma! I can’t mind exactly how the scoring works ( and away from my pc just now) but should be possible to do one or the other and still get a win, provided you keep your casualties down. I’m sure that’s the kicker scoring wise. Regardless though, I’m truly glad you enjoyed it cos I was also aiming for that :)

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@George MC,

   I had hoped that your scenario genius would be included in F&R.  I'm presently working my way through the excellent Von Schroif campaign, but quickly checked out "Mit Karacho!" to see what the briefing contained.  It is cool to see some of the Alten Hasen (Old Hares, veterans) have survived from the Von Schroif campaign.  The "Alter Mann" Voss is still handing out Himmelfahrt missions, I see.  This time our protagonist is Hauptmann Steiner, who doesn't seem to be as well liked by Oberstleutnant Voss as Von Schroif, but certainly is as well respected for his command abilities.  I'm guessing that perhaps Steiner and von Stransky are nods to the movie and book "Cross of Iron," although the ranks are different in the movie.

   There always has to be someone with a damn "scratchy throat," and this time it is von Stransky in this battle and not Krüger from the von Schroif campaign.

   Your storytelling is great, and the briefings really bring home some of the desperation faced by commanders who just wanted to bring their troops home safely despite the battles they were drawn into.  I look forward to playing this scenario out soon.

Regards,

Heinrich505 

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@Heinrich505

He! Nae sure about the genius bit! Good to hear you’re on the road with Von Schroif. I hope you enjoy it. I’ve a few more campaigns on the simmer just now. Busy doing some updating using CMFR. 
 

Good spot re Mit Karacho and the characters. I significantly reworked that mission in CMFR and the Soviet’s have a whole different set of AI plans and triggers. Was fun to see it in winter. Yup the two key characters are a nod to Cross Of Iron, albeit with different ranks. Good spot!

Look forward to hearing how this and Von Schroif go for you.

Cheery!
 

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I am in the beginning of a PBEM game, so I will skip pervious discussion to avoid spoiler .

 

Glad to know that Hauptmann Von Stransky got into trouble again. (Maybe he has a different name in "Kampfgruppe von Schroif" ?)

 

One question about soviets spotting score: Does sound contact count as spotting ?   

I killed a Soviets ATR gunner, and his assistant gunner flee into the deep woods. But he could hide in a place that can hear my panzers. I don't know if I should spare extra scout team to hunt him down. 

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21 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

I am in the beginning of a PBEM game, so I will skip pervious discussion to avoid spoiler .

 

Glad to know that Hauptmann Von Stransky got into trouble again. (Maybe he has a different name in "Kampfgruppe von Schroif" ?)

 

One question about soviets spotting score: Does sound contact count as spotting ?   

I killed a Soviets ATR gunner, and his assistant gunner flee into the deep woods. But he could hide in a place that can hear my panzers. I don't know if I should spare extra scout team to hunt him down. 

Objectives are of course important but @George MC is a good enough designer to have given the player some flex on these objectives I am sure.  It would be a pretty dumb move to send units all over the map to chase after every single sound contact.  Think of the mission holistically and view it through the common sense/realism lens rather than trying to score every single point available.

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21 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

I am in the beginning of a PBEM game, so I will skip pervious discussion to avoid spoiler .

 

Glad to know that Hauptmann Von Stransky got into trouble again. (Maybe he has a different name in "Kampfgruppe von Schroif" ?)

 

One question about soviets spotting score: Does sound contact count as spotting ?   

I killed a Soviets ATR gunner, and his assistant gunner flee into the deep woods. But he could hide in a place that can hear my panzers. I don't know if I should spare extra scout team to hunt him down. 

He! Aye good spot :)

This mission is based on the one in the von Schroif campaign BUT the map has been extensively reworked, the Soviet AI plan has had a total overhaul, slightly different objectives scoring, different OOBs. So whilst it appears similar it is very, very different.

Re scoring - the scoring as @Combatintmanstates is flexible. for spotting the player only gets points if the they a have a positive ID on the unit NOT if you only get a sound contact or fleeting 'what's that?' type spot.

However in this scenario just spotting stuff will not be enough to either win or lose this. Both players will have to do more to earn a win. If players follow their mission orders and aim to achieve them then they have a good chance of winning. So in this regard @Combatintman's advice is on the nail - "Think of the mission holistically and view it through the common sense/realism lens rather than trying to score every single point available."

Good luck :)

Cheery!

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  • 1 month later...

Really great mission minus Steiner's Panthers being cursed in my playthrough, two getting taken out by SU-76's through the lower front plate that they couldn't see 50m away and one catching an 85mm shell to the mantlet, but I guess that just gives me impetus to play it again later and see what other AI plans there are.

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Just now, Codreanu said:

SU-76's through the lower front plate that they couldn't see 50m away and one catching an 85mm shell to the mantlet,

In this game it is not recommended to shoot at any tank at the front even when you think your unit is far superior. 

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On 5/8/2021 at 9:04 PM, Frederico said:

I exited almost all of Stransky's force ( minus one halftrack and 4-5 men), destroyed 18 Soviet tanks and 200 men and still suffered a tactical defeat. What is the secret?

You must look at your situation before you start. Example 500 points for touching objectives but no mention of enemy units means you get zero points for eliminating enemy forces. 

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4 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

In this game it is not recommended to shoot at any tank at the front even when you think your unit is far superior. 

Yes, that was definitely where I messed up, although I'm more miffed about my tanks being unable to spot the 76s than the fact they penetrated me, especially since I was ordering one of the Panthers to manually fire HE at one and he still couldn't manage to see him despite multiple hits, but that's just part of the game I suppose, close range spotting with vehicles has always been weird.

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2 minutes ago, Codreanu said:

although I'm more miffed about my tanks being unable to spot the 76s than the fact they penetrated me

You played against the AI? I think the following happened but I am an awful scenario designer. The Panther drove over a certain tile. A scenario designer could have painted there a 'Trigger' which gave the SU76 a Contact. This contact is the reason the SU76 had the first shot on your Panther. An APCR round from the SU76 can penetrate 92mm at 500 meters. Tip have infantry in front of armor they spot armor reliably at 1000 meters. You pass on the intel from the infantry by having the unit next to an unbuttoned tank. If the tank maneuvers to his target (which is his contact icon) the odds, are he will have the first shot in. Here I assigned the scouts to a Pzr4. They pass on their intel of the SU100 (on the left) to the Pzr4 by moving to the tank's proximity which must be unbuttoned. It is crucial that the Pzr4 gets in the first shot against a 100mm. The communication between a tank and infantry must be direct in the C2 they don't share radio. That is why my scouts are out of contact with their platoon. 

scouts.png

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1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

In this game it is not recommended to shoot at any tank at the front even when you think your unit is far superior. 

LOL, since when is that?

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7 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

LOL, since when is that?

Since I played Gog and Magog. King Tigers vs T34/76 and 76.2 mm ATG. Clever designer! Spoilers by the time you fight JS2 and SU152mm you have no optics gun-mantlet is damaged, radio is gone too. 

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2 hours ago, Codreanu said:

Yes, that was definitely where I messed up, although I'm more miffed about my tanks being unable to spot the 76s than the fact they penetrated me, especially since I was ordering one of the Panthers to manually fire HE at one and he still couldn't manage to see him despite multiple hits, but that's just part of the game I suppose, close range spotting with vehicles has always been weird.

Thanks for your comments. Glad you enjoyed it :)

We’re your Panthers buttoned up? The gunners sight in the Panther has a very narrow field of view - like looking down a straw. Great magnification but troublesome for finding targets (narrow forks of view). 
 

The weather conditions in this mission also place the Panthers at a disadvantage as their ability to engage at range is nullified. 
 

Operating the Panthers unbuttoned and in close contact with the grenadiers (dismounted in close terrain) helps with IDing enemy positions. 
 

Thanks again fir your comments. 
 

Cheery!

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2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

You played against the AI? I think the following happened but I am an awful scenario designer. The Panther drove over a certain tile. A scenario designer could have painted there a 'Trigger' which gave the SU76 a Contact. This contact is the reason the SU76 had the first shot on your Panther. 

Edited by George MC
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16 minutes ago, George MC said:

anyways AI plan ‘triggers’ don’t  give any spotting advantage. 

Explain? The way I see it the Panther could have set off a trigger and make some enemy units advance. How does the algorithm work? Nobody knows, if Soviet infantry also advanced their contacts can be passed on to the SU76. The Panther didn't spot the SU76 let alone infantry. This happens when we play on Hotseat. This is what I do when I want to spot armor first. It is basics scouts, squad, platoon followed by supporting elements. If you lead armor first expect casualties. Like I said in my first post here, I am an awful designer.

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21 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Explain? The way I see it the Panther could have set off a trigger and make some enemy units advance. How does the algorithm work? Nobody knows, if Soviet infantry also advanced their contacts can be passed on to the SU76. The Panther didn't spot the SU76 let alone infantry. This happens when we play on Hotseat. This is what I do when I want to spot armor first. It is basics scouts, squad, platoon followed by supporting elements. If you lead armor first expect casualties. Like I said in my first post here, I am an awful designer.

AI plan triggers cause the assigned AI unit to begin an action - they don’t trigger an advantageous spotting response. Which is what you asserted. 
 

Spotting contacts are shared by the AI units same as is done for the human player. Difference is the AI ‘player’ has less ability to use that info - although shared spotting info will give a spotting advantage  

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